Emulsion Chefs Roundup

dwross said:

Hi All,

I woke up this morning thinking it was time again to bump this topic up to the top. I continue to feel that APUG is the natural place to discuss and learn emulsion making. (Yes, I know. I'm a very stubborn person.) The number of silver gelatin emulsion makers continues to grow and grow, yet it's harder and harder to sustain the conversation here. I can't think of a good reason for that, so here goes again.

Are any emulsion makers still reading APUG? And, if you are, stop lurking! Post your pics. Post your successes. Post your failures. (And I hope you have them. I'd hate to think I'm the only one who has an absolutely Epic Fail every now and again!)

d

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hi denise

I hesitated to post yesterday but decided to post today.
it has been about 30 years since I was an emulsion chef.
I remember my problem with the batch/es i made were they
we're not very good. images did not have very good contrast ...and
i was making dry plates with no clue, and nothing stuck to the glass.
aside from being utterly clueless it took a large amount of effort ( and $$$ )
seeing there were no web forums or books on
the subjects .. no workshops .. just a feeling of isolation ... I eventually gave up and
went commercially made product, and eventually
after weeks of failure figured out a way to get the emulsion to bind to glass
... but I have been reading and preparing to make some again ...
this time not being in isolation ... the only thing that has held me back over the years is my
stash of unexposed film .. and a feeling of guilt when I begin to make my own, and forget
about my store bought reserves.

john

i want to say thanks to wildbillbugman, in the endless hours i spent 30 years ago trying to
get the emulsion to stick to the glass, and being heartbroken when in the fix the emulsion lifted
off the plate and went down the drain i didn't believe there was a way to get emulsion to stick to glass
without a "sub layer" of gelatin or urethane or something else on the glass .. but a few years ago i read in total disbelief
that it is possible ... i now ... am a convert, nothing is needed ! 30 years ago i was in the dark, now i see the dark-light!

thanks wildbillbugman !

dwross said:

...yet it's harder and harder to sustain the conversation here. I can't think of a good reason for that...

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I noted in a recent post by Simon that Harman Technology celebrated its 10th anniversary in the post-reorganization era. That's ten years of stability, accompanied by modest growth. The unwashed heaved a sigh of relief.

Nothing focuses the mind like a noose. Absent a dangling piece of rope and bad expectations...



Ken

Ken, you should be forearmed by the forewarning!

PE

...Harman Technology celebrated its 10th anniversary in the post-reorganization era...

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Ken,

If you are saying that there is less interest because one can still get film from commercial producers, no doubt that's true. Not only that, I am sure that most of us making our own emulsions are also buying commercially produced film - I certainly am. And I also backed the Ferrania project - as much to help get the film into production (and the film rewards) as to get a few glimpses inside the factory - which is starting to pay off.

But for me, it is a fascination with the art and science of making film emulsions and being able to do something that I did not think was possible. AND, as you learn, ALL of the variables come into play and you can create things that are not available.

Color film is a whole other animal. I suppose somehow it is possible to make color film in your basement, but I doubt it is realistic!

-- Jason

wildbillbugman said:

Smieglitz,
I swore off of gelatin several years ago. Not for any religious or ethical reasons related to animal life. I specialize in imaging of various procedures on glass. All of my silver-halide emulsions are,so far, on glass plates. To this end I have "adopted" silane functional PVA. A commercially available one is Kuraray POVAL 1130. It is a solid powder which can be dissolved in water and incorporated into emulsions in place of gelatin. The silane functionality is specifically for adhesion to glass. It is available from Bostick and Sullivan. If you order any, specify the dry powder. They also have some dissolved in water. But that is only 5%. I take pains to get a 10% solution. Then I filter it to get rid of undissolved particles.
Bill

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Experimenting with silane from B&S did cross my mind but earlier today I read some stuff in a wiki that led me to think it wouldn't be very promising (i.e., it was a silicon version of methane, explosive, etc.,) although there was some reference to one form (that had 4 polymerized chains or something?) that looked different from the rest.

I don't recall exactly why I knew of silane from years back but it had something to do with adhering to glass and an overlayer as an intermediate substrate. Maybe for gum printing or cyanotypes on glass? Perhaps it was in a post you authored a few years ago. In any event, I'll call Dana and get some ordered. I was also playing with their PVA today to see if it would adhere to glass.

Thanks Bill and Matt for the leads.

Uh oh, Ron... Never got any forewarnings. Am I in the dog house again??

Wasn't it Mark Twain who defined Work to be anything one HAS to do, and Play to be anything one WANTS to do?

Jason is correct. All I'm saying is that maybe right now with the current stability of a largely successfully downsized b&w film industry there is no immediately visible dangling noose. That the current practitioners of the emulsion making arts on APUG are playing with it because they want to? Not working with it because they have to?

At least not yet...

Throw in another recession, or a killer spike in the cost of raw materials, or draconian environmental rules specific to large-scale manufacturers, or the introduction of a $99 full blown holographic camera for those same unwashed, and that calculus might change. And the threat of the noose with it. Minds thus focused would do what they had to do.

I am reminded of the exchange in the POW vegetable garden between Colonel Von Luger and Group Captain Ramsey in the motion picture The Great Escape...

Von Luger: "I must say I am surprised with the extent of this activity, Group Captain. Pleased, of course, but surprised."

Ramsey: "Surprised, Colonel?"

Von Luger: "Fliers are gentlemen, not peasants to dig in the earth. So I am surprised."

Ramsey: "The English are keen on gardening."

Von Luger: "Oh, yes, but flowers. Is this not so?"

Ramsey: "You can't eat flowers, Colonel."

Von Luger: "Good point..."

One does what one must when the time comes to do it.



Ken

P.S. For what it's worth, I'm actually dying to try this myself. Except that right now I can barely find enough tiny slivers of free time to pick up a camera loaded with Ilford, let alone one loaded with Kenford...

Good thoughts, Ken.

I was never too worried about 'film' disappearing. I figured then (and now I know I was optimistic and lucky in my opinion) that someone would keep making the stuff, although I really missed some of the extinct papers and a couple of the older film emulsions. When brands I'd never heard of starting popping up I knew we had gotten a little breathing space as far as materials went. The real 'noose' I saw then was the disappearance of knowledge. Not just the scientists and engineers who provided us with what amounts to a miracle, but also the amateur and professional photographers with a hundred years of gut know-how about chemical photography, along with their darkrooms.

Thanks to almost ten years of very dedicated work by a small handful of people, countless recipes and techniques at least are no longer in danger of extinction. I'm glad (really) that our work, and the dogged professionalism of Ilford (and others), have made people complacent again. Fear isn't a good motivation for anything. Having said that, it is high time that handmade silver gelatin made its way into popular consciousness. It's happening at GEH. The Dry Plate group on Facebook grows every day. Christopher James' 3rd edition of Alternative Photography has an expanded silver gelatin chapter (of which I'm proud to have contributed.)

But, APUG is still the best place for the conversation to continue and for more people to jump in. I hope that happens, but it may be that APUG is more about something else today. I guess time will tell. Jason's comments should be very inspirational to a lot of people.

John,
I keep my fingers crossed that your store of film runs out soon! Can hardly wait to see what you create .

Smieglitz
I was not suggesting liquid silane. The Kuraray polymer is very stable. Before I found this product, I made my own with amine functional silane and PVA. But the Kuraray product is very stable and works better than my homemade stuff. It is not explosive. It is no more toxic than regular PVA. If you work with glass plates, I would definately try it
B&S dose sell a liquid amine functional silane. But do not confuse it with the solid Poval polymer. The latter is much newer for Bostick& Sullivan.

Denise you're right it's funny that we all cry about the demise of film but don't seem the be as vocal about the demise of some of our fav. papers. It's absolutely astounding how many different surfaces and textures of paper were still available only a few decades ago and today .
Coating paper will be my next step after mastering the dry plate, I hope the latter isn't as finicky a process as salted paper.

Denise,
Are we truly "chefs". Or just "fast food" bun stuffers?
I warned everyone that, now that I am reading, I may start writing.

The fast Food industry certainly provides us with one of the more important ingredients. Everything but the gelatine can be found at your closest McDonalds Franchise. I am sure if you ad some silver nitrate to a big mac you'll get a working super panchromatic high Speed Emulsion

Ilford, Kodak and Fuji are doing well now, and we rely on machine coated products, but we can make Azo, Brovira and Kodabromide type papers and Plus X and Super XX type films. The real complaint among all that I have talked to, and I probably have talked to more than most all of you, is that good quality coatings are hard to make.

Well, it takes practice. And the right equipment.

But, going further, there are dozens of formulas that should be replicated, but are not. I've said before that there are about 100 photo engineers left in the world and few of them are sharing their formulas. I have shared and will share, but find little interest beyond the few who post here.

I am willing to help and used to get many questions (up to 20 / day) but in the last few months get very few questions except the general few posted in this forum. I daresay, I've had more experience in all analog photographic work than all of the rest of the posters put together. I'm here, but we are not all going to be here forever. Our retirees group keeps a web page of "passings', and it is very sad to see friends and coworkers vanish!

So, while we are here, use us or lose us!

PE

PE first let me thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Second Practice takes time and that's the one thing many people don't seem to have or at least aren't willing to give up to master a craft.
Supposedly one of the reasons of Efke/Fotokemikas demise was the age of the emulsion technicians who were ready for retirement and didn't have any suitable successors as there was too little interest in a craft with seemingly no future.

Third Denise and the Lightfarm seem to be a step in the right direction a sort of silver gelatine emulsion making archive and go to place for people who are interested in emulsion making but are afraid of the more complicated formulas that are available on the net such as some you have posted.

Thanks for the compliment.

To go on though, I've also posted simple emulsions.

But then, to add to your comments, some people have used the more complex of the formulas that Denise has posted.

So, it is a mix.

At the present time, more contacts are asking me about S+Au sensitization, TAI and PMT use than anything else and all of this was off-line. And formulas range from the simple to the complex. They tell me that I have not published enough in my book or on-line about these subjects and want more complex information. And this goes in fits and starts. Sometimes, I am hard pressed to answer all of a day's questions in one day, and other days, I get no questions. Lately, I'm getting fewer and fewer.

As for practice, some will practice for hours to get a good carbon print or bromoil print, but will not take a moment to work on Silver Gelatin, but if the Silver Gelatin products go out of production, their hard won printing experience is for naught.

And one last item is that I have mainly restricted myself (as has Denise I think) to pre 1945 formulas. Even the Ammonia emulsion that I published here was basically "invented" around 1920. I've never, to my knowledge, published a really modern, up-to-date formula. They will be in the second volume of the book (by popular demand) but about 1/2 of them will be simple.

PE

wildbillbugman said:

Denise,
Are we truly "chefs". Or just "fast food" bun stuffers?
I warned everyone that, now that I am reading, I may start writing.

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Bill, dear, you are a gastronomic scientist. If there was an emulsion equivalent to the cronut, your fortune would be secure!

Ron,
It would be wonderful to learn some of the nuts and bolts of the really, really complex modern recipes. I think there would be a lot of interest. Robert Shanebrook's book definitely wasn't aimed at the DIY'er, yet it seems to be successful. The issue of "modern" vs. "old" is far less cut and dried than I'd expect. More than anything it seems to be about making the materials foolproof for any and all who want to try their hands at darkroom work. Comes down as much as anything to exotic chemicals. Two of my favorite emulsions come from the 1973 SPSE Handbook of Photographic Science and Engineering. They don't have more than a half dozen ingredients. They were designed to be test emulsions. Testing what I don't know. I'd love to hear stories about how the Kodak test labs operated. Mees' book, 'Dry Plates to Ektachrome" laid out his revolutionary ideas for creative R&D. It must have incredible to work there.

MDR,
AgX paper is a whole lot less finicky than salted paper. Making a great loaf of sourdough bread would seem simple. Just a few ingredients, right? But, anyone who bakes knows that a loaf of real sourdough is anything but simple to perfect. (Still tasty, though .)

Making a basic silver gelatin emulsion is one of the safer alternative processes, and not near as complex as some. I agree with Ron. It's a puzzle why so many people will sweat bullets to make the other photo processes, but not think it's reasonable to put the same work and practice into silver gelatin. Fortunately, that seems to be changing fast. Sometimes things just need a little time to catch on!

Denise, in my readings 100% of ALL emulsion formulas I have read (and I have not read the ones you refer to above) omit critical steps or have outright errors in them. ALL of them, are wrong for one reason or another. I have even read some in the original German and find omissions.

One APUG member challenged me on a chemical used, but did not know the German chemical name and thus missed it and passed it on apparently as an unknown. IDK. But this field is filled with challenges.

PE

I have yet to even start.

I'm also curious if anyone has used formate to sensitise an emulsion?

Photo Engineer said:

Denise, in my readings 100% of ALL emulsion formulas I have read (and I have not read the ones you refer to above) omit critical steps or have outright errors in them. ALL of them, are wrong for one reason or another. I have even read some in the original German and find omissions.

One APUG member challenged me on a chemical used, but did not know the German chemical name and thus missed it and passed it on apparently as an unknown. IDK. But this field is filled with challenges.

PE

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Fingers crossed that all the corrections are in your new book! That would be a great service to posterity.

I've never had any problems with published recipes. Perhaps I've been lucky. Sometimes the instructions have been in shorthand, but the same is true for old cookbooks (which I also collect). A certain level of know-how was assumed. I respect that. Easy enough, fortunately, to learn with a little study and practice. If by errors, you mean a left-out ingredient (like leaving the secret nutmeg out of the coffee cake recipe you donate to the church cookbook ) the recipes still cook up tasty. Mrs. Kodak is welcome to be the only one able to bake her 'perfect' coffee cake.

Here is one: In some translations from German, Begieszusatsen is written as Begiebazusatsen. The latter is a bad misspelling of basting sauce which can (and has) been interpreted as overcoat. However, the original means coating addenda or added to the emulsion. There is a big difference.

Another lists 6 ingredients as addenda in a formula, but there are 7 and the amounts are mixed up by this omission. This one was published on APUG and also in Glafkides.

So, I don't trust much of anything because times are left out, temperatures, and a lot more.

Eat a lot of nutmeg before going to bed and enjoy your dreams!

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Here is one: In some translations from German, Begieszusatsen is written as Begiebazusatsen. The latter is a bad misspelling of basting sauce which can (and has) been interpreted as overcoat. However, the original means coating addenda or added to the emulsion. There is a big difference.
PE

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You were speaking about „Begießzusätzen“. That is indeed a quite special German Word.

Athril
Formalin (formaldehyde) was used as a cross linking agent in many formulas. Due to toxicity it has fallen out of use. But I still use it. It is readily available. I am just too old to die young.

wildbillbugman said:

.... I am just too old to die young.

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This should be on a T shirt!

chrisaisenbrey said:

You were speaking about „Begießzusätzen“. That is indeed a quite special German Word.

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I did not have the German sz on my keyboard, and in my available fonts, but yes, that is correct. The translator took the German character for a "B" and in translation it vaguely resembled another word.

PE

Bill, Athril indeed meant formate, as in Sodium Formate.

Ath: It's on my list but I haven't tried yet and I don't know that anyone else has either. There was a big discussion here a few years ago. I did get some formic acid but not Sodium Formate, which is what the patents call out.

Formate is supposed to produce two-electron sensitization.

-- Jason

There are a number of patents and a lawsuit over this work. It was tried by Kodak based on the patents and we could not get it to work. In fact, AFAIK, no one but the original worker could get it to work. The rights were sold to Agfa (IIRC) and it was never commercialized in any product.

There is quite a bit of lingering controversy over this one and it is not just dump and stir. The Sodium Format is the Sodium salt of Formic Acid which is a close relative of Formaldehyde.

PE