Emulsion Chefs Roundup

dwross · Feb 23, 2015

Hi All,

I woke up this morning thinking it was time again to bump this topic up to the top. I continue to feel that APUG is the natural place to discuss and learn emulsion making. (Yes, I know. I'm a very stubborn person.) The number of silver gelatin emulsion makers continues to grow and grow, yet it's harder and harder to sustain the conversation here. I can't think of a good reason for that, so here goes again.

Are any emulsion makers still reading APUG? And, if you are, stop lurking! Post your pics. Post your successes. Post your failures. (And I hope you have them. I'd hate to think I'm the only one who has an absolutely Epic Fail every now and again!)

d

MDR · Feb 23, 2015

Hi Denise I am still reading APUG and tried Kevin Klein's Emulsion Formula (from your site) with some sucess last year, I also had some epic fails mostly emulsion sliding of the plate during the wash. Will try to scan some photographs. I believe the reason for the lack of interest on APUG is the fact that film is still widely available so no reason to make film/paper oneself. The Alt-process part of Apug doesn't seem to be very active either. People like to talk about the handcraft and handmade aspect of analogue photography as compared to digital but that only means developing the film/paper in the darkroom that's it.

dwross · Feb 23, 2015

I think you've probably identified the issue. APUG today is more about conversation than action. Alternative processes are alive and well and dry plate is growing by leaps and bounds. Maybe you can buy film, but you can't buy a dry plate (at least at a sane price.) Not to mention, of course, the "happiness quotient" of D.I.Y.

If you want to try plate making again, I hope you start a Q&A here. I'll try to help. Your emulsion shouldn't be sliding off the glass.

MDR · Feb 23, 2015

It shouldn't but it does if one uses too much hot water it was entirely my mistake. Sliding was also the wrong word the right word would be washed away but this would have happened to any comercial Emulsion as well. I just mentioned it as example for an epic fail or more precisely epic case of stupidity. I was planing to make some plates next month and print them on salted paper. The perfect synergy of old and not quiet new.
Will try to post some Pictures of my successes.

kb3lms · Feb 23, 2015

I am still here, as well. Thank you for bumping! Been trying to figure out the art and science of chemical sensitization.

Here is a fairly recent success story.

Some of the gelatin was damaged trying to clean the negative.

-- Jason

MattKing · Feb 23, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
I'm not an emulsion maker but enjoy reading about emulsion making and coating, and read all the APUG threads with interest.

Same for me.

dwross · Feb 23, 2015

kb3lms said:
I am still here, as well. Thank you for bumping! Been trying to figure out the art and science of chemical sensitization.

Here is a fairly recent success story.

View attachment 103926

Some of the gelatin was damaged trying to clean the negative.

-- Jason

Wowsers! Fantastic. REALLY nice to see that you are still at it!

MDR · Feb 23, 2015

kb3lms said:
I am still here, as well. Thank you for bumping! Been trying to figure out the art and science of chemical sensitization.

Here is a fairly recent success story.

View attachment 103926

Some of the gelatin was damaged trying to clean the negative.

-- Jason

Nice results congrats

Photo Engineer · Feb 23, 2015

Jason, good results. Congratulations. Do you have a speed point for the emulsion?

PE

NedL · Feb 23, 2015

Hi Denise, Like Michael and Matt, I read with interest all the posts here about emulsion making. I've also spent a lot of time reading at your site, and Kevin Klein's emulsion caught my eye too. I have a soft spot for the old blue-sensitive photographs and this appeals to me as a place to start. ( And in my mind, because of the museums I visit, it is connected with the old West and the history of where I live. )

I have all the ingredients here already, but no glass, and I'd have to figure out which of my cameras could use glass. One camera I'm sure I could use would work best with 8.5x11 inch plates and that might not be the best way to get started. Anyway, probably some morning I will wake up, get the bug to give it a try, and try to make some. For now I'm kept more than busy with other "alternative process" as well as more "normal" photography!

dwross · Feb 23, 2015

All cameras are great cameras! (Although I've never seen an 8.5 x 11 inch camera -- cool). Old film holders are easy enough to convert to plate holders. 4x5's are probably the easiest to find.

kb3lms · Feb 23, 2015

Hi PE,

That batch was right around ISO 25. It had minimal sodium thiosulfate sensitization. I am working on a run now that is closer to 40 with thiosulfate @ 100mg / mole Ag. Samples cut from selvedge below, the first is straight as exposed for ISO 25 (overexposed) and with Levels applied.

Last night I sensitized the second half of the run with Sodium Thiocyanate at 50 mg / mole Ag. Haven't coated any of this one yet. I used thiocyante to try something different.

Caroline (the rabbit) at least makes an agreeable model!

No gold sensitizing tried with this emulsion yet. BTW, these are not plates but 35mm film negatives. The 120 negatives look really great - I have to get some printed.

-- Jason

kb3lms · Feb 23, 2015

4x5's are probably the easiest to find.

I am seriously thinking about a Crown Graphic.

-- Jason

Photo Engineer · Feb 23, 2015

Good work Jason. Nick and I are working on a new emulsion formula that is super easy. We are at about ISO 32 or higher. We talk several times a week and he sends me his latest in e-mails.

This new emulsion is destined for both film and paper with minor modifications.

PE

kevin klein · Feb 23, 2015

I still look around here. My fotografing has come to a stand still for now because there is snow on the ground and I would rather have a scene with contrast to it.

smieglitz · Feb 23, 2015

Has anyone experimented with using a plant-based substance such as carrageen or agar-agar in place of gelatin in a photographic emulsion? I just became a vegan and would like to find an alternative for making dry-plates. I know collodion can be used for very slow plates and prints, but is there anything else promising?

dwross · Feb 23, 2015

There really isn't. At least not in the world of DIY.

Congratulations on going vegan. I couldn't pull it off myself but I respect your commitment.
But.. No critters are killed just for their gelatin. If ever there was a product the honored the ideal of wasting no part of an animal, gelatin would be it. I like the idea of using a by-product that would otherwise go to a landfill or incinerator. Interestingly, harvesting seaweed can be quite environmentally damaging. I guess it depends on what "big picture" you are most interested in.

hermit · Feb 24, 2015

I found with the collodin dry plates my spouse make many of the old, as in 1890 to 1920 had a metal sheet used for sheet film which was easy to remove so glass plates could be used. With the plates removed they are perfect for glass dry plates. Easy to find if one persistent on EBay or similar. Can load up on both sides and shoot like sheet film. We have 5 or 6 for each of different cameras from 4 x 5 to 8 x 10.

MDR · Feb 24, 2015

Are we talking ovo lacto vegan or simply no meat and fish if the latter is the case there is the albumen negative process which is even slower than collodion but is supposed to render good midtones http://albumen.conservation-us.org/library/c19/albnegp.html
But currently there is unfortunately no substitute for Gelatin if you need speed that is.

smieglitz · Feb 24, 2015

MDR said:
Are we talking ovo lacto vegan or simply no meat and fish if the latter is the case there is the albumen negative process which is even slower than collodion but is supposed to render good midtones http://albumen.conservation-us.org/library/c19/albnegp.html
But currently there is unfortunately no substitute for Gelatin if you need speed that is.

Nope. I've decided no meat, fish, dairy or eggs at all. Hence my dilemma. I certainly can do wetplate negatives and then contact print in salted paper, gum bichromate, Pt/Pd, cyanotype, Aristotype (collodio-chloride which I haven't tried yet), without needing albumen or gelatin. Heck, I've even made a few Bequerel Daguerreotypes and polymer photogravures so I do have options. But, lugging around a darkroom and inhaling ether all day can be uhh, inconvenient. Not really interested at all in the simplest route which would be digital.

This may be a blessing in disguise forcing me to get serious refining wetplate technique and concentrating on a specific printing method or two as well as subject. At 60, I've put myself into a position where I either give up another thing that I've embraced almost my entire life (steaks, ribs, wings, sigmoid colon, film, shoes, etc.,) or find some way to modify my life and get on with it. I sometimes get philosophical and think that my investigation into wetplate back in 2005 (after 2475 recording film and Ektalure paper were discontinued) was somehow karmic and preparation for this day. But, I'd still like to have a stash of ready-to-use plates I could take with me on location without always needing a darkroom at hand.

Nothing like overcomplicating everything...

I have arrowroot and agar around here someplace. I'll play around with it to see if either might work to some degree.

wildbillbugman · Feb 24, 2015

MDR,
If you are still having problems with emulsion not adhering to glass plates, I suggest that your cleaning of the glass is not sufficient. I have a somewhat long glass prep on Denise's TLF. But even I do not go that far anymore. You should test your panels by pouring on water and holding the plate vertically. There should be NO breakage of the water sheet, even after a minute.
Good luck (Yes! Luck exists. And it dose matter)
Bill

wildbillbugman · Feb 24, 2015

I am guilty of having virtually abandoned this Forum. 2014 was a difficult year for me. But I promise to start reading the Forum every day again. But, the negative in that is that I might start posting again.
Bill

Photo Engineer · Feb 24, 2015

Bill, don't worry. But we did miss you.

Hope things are going well for you!

PE

wildbillbugman · Feb 24, 2015

Smieglitz,
I swore off of gelatin several years ago. Not for any religious or ethical reasons related to animal life. I specialize in imaging of various procedures on glass. All of my silver-halide emulsions are,so far, on glass plates. To this end I have "adopted" silane functional PVA. A commercially available one is Kuraray POVAL 1130. It is a solid powder which can be dissolved in water and incorporated into emulsions in place of gelatin. The silane functionality is specifically for adhesion to glass. It is available from Bostick and Sullivan. If you order any, specify the dry powder. They also have some dissolved in water. But that is only 5%. I take pains to get a 10% solution. Then I filter it to get rid of undissolved particles.
Bill

MattKing · Feb 24, 2015

David Pitcher, a member of the Pacifica Chapter of the Center of Photographic History and Technology has been working on replacements for gelatin. He did a presentation of his work at the 2012 Northwest Symposium.

I've cut and paste his Bio from the information for that Symposium:

"David Pitcher has always been fascinated with the historical photographic processes of the early 19th century and has a deep passion for modern technology. These interests have now collided together and are allowing him to leverage modern 21st century digital imaging techniques and fusing it together with the 19th century processes and photographic systems. Over the past two years David has been working on developing an alternative to the traditional usage of gelatin and chemical hardening agents used for sizing and subbing substrates. Much of this research has been focused on finding an easy to use coating solution that can be applied to non porous surfaces as glass, metal, and plastics to expand the possibilities of usable substrates for alternative photographic processes."

He helped organize the 2014 Symposium - Mark Osterman was the keynote speaker.

You can probably reach him through the chapter's website: Dead Link Removed

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