Elitism

johnnywalker · Jul 3, 2006

If I describe someone as an elitist, to me it means what David said earlier: that it is someone who puts him/her self in amongst the best. This sense of the word has a negative connotation. If I describe David (for instance) as part of the "Photographic Elite" it would be a compliment, and has a positive connotation. The difference being who puts you in the elite group - yourself or your peers (except for Ole, who is a tongue-in-cheek elitist).

The meanings I perceive for the words may or may not fit with the Oxford definitions.

firecracker · Jul 3, 2006

in the context of Japanese culture, the word "elite" means bureaucrats, which is very misleading. But this is a culture, where commercial airline pilots are thought to be elites, and so are the banktellers no matter what their real abilities are. It's a simple class culture. The bottom line is the idea of "being men in the uniform."

David H. Bebbington · Jul 3, 2006

firecracker said:
in the context of Japanese culture, the word "elite" means bureaucrats, which is very misleading. But this is a culture, where commercial airline pilots are thought to be elites, and so are the banktellers no matter what their real abilities are. It's a simple class culture. The bottom line is the idea of "being men in the uniform."

Now we're getting somewhere. Where can I get one of these uniforms? Lots of gold braid, I hope!

Roger Hicks · Jul 3, 2006

c6h6o3 said:
That particular quote is attibuted to George Bernard Shaw. Wilde phrased it a little differently.

I stand corrected, for which I am grateful; I dislike being wrong. But was it not Dorothy Parker who remarked (of quotes in general, not this one in particular) 'We all assume that Oscar said it'?

Cheers,

R.

Steve Smith · Jul 3, 2006

Roger,

The full Dorothy Parker quote is..

If, with the literate, I am
Impelled to try an epigram,
I never seek to take the credit:
We all assume that Oscar said it.

Steve.

Roger Hicks · Jul 3, 2006

Dear Steve,

Thanks. I can't even FIND my Dorothy Parker books. Time to reorganize the bookshelves. Again.

Cheers,

Roger

Roger Hicks · Jul 3, 2006

johnnywalker said:
If I describe someone as an elitist, to me it means what David said earlier: that it is someone who puts him/her self in amongst the best. This sense of the word has a negative connotation. If I describe David (for instance) as part of the "Photographic Elite" it would be a compliment, and has a positive connotation. The difference being who puts you in the elite group - yourself or your peers (except for Ole, who is a tongue-in-cheek elitist).

The meanings I perceive for the words may or may not fit with the Oxford definitions.

Quite. I have yet to claim membership of any elite, merely an aspiration.

Cheers,

Roger

firecracker · Jul 3, 2006

David H. Bebbington said:
Now we're getting somewhere. Where can I get one of these uniforms? Lots of gold braid, I hope!

Indeed until 61 years ago, Japan was known as Imperial Japan, which was a total military state, becoming modernized by copying off some European countries such as Germany.

That's why school uniforms are still popular, and annual gymnastic events are still run as a part of the curriculum in school education with military march songs in the background.

Anyway back to the elite discussion, I do see the negative connotation as well because many elites have led to exploit others, and they are quite sucessful being that way.

To me personally, elitism is like playing amateur golf: I have no interest of pursuing anything in that field, and it's plain boring to watch. Doesn't mean a thing to me.

Ed Sukach · Jul 3, 2006

I think I can say this simply: I am NOT an elitist. I do NOT desire to be part of an "elite" group, nor will I support one with that motive.

I have been vilified and ostracized for that very attitude. There are many in the "Art World", or at least in the local art world, who feel that stratification ... where they are considered to be at the "top" level... is necessary - "What else are we doing this for ?" The consequenses of questioning - or even suggesting opposition to that premise can be severe.

I am not so facetiously altruistic that I will claim that I do not notice, or enjoy, a little adulation from time to time, but the question is "How do you get that adulation?".
If I have to do anything that will cause grief to another, I refuse. Status, adulation, a "good review", is not worth the penalty I will pay in terms of negative impact to something precious to me ... my belief system.
I CHOOSE an Omar Khayyam approach: I will leave the Oriental Court political maneuvering to those to whom it is important. I only want a place where I can "do" my chosen obsession. With Khayyam, it was mathematics; Mine is photography.

"I think the rose ne'er blows so red
As the grave where some buried Ceasar bled.
A jug of wine, a loaf of bread
And thou, beside me, singing in the wilderness.
Ah, wilderness is paradise enow."

My jug of wine is my camera and film; my bread is light. My wilderness, the studio, darkroom, location, exhibition space.

I may leave this world unrecognized, destitute ... of low social status.
One thing is certain - it will be a long time until the smile leaves my face - if ever.

Wigwam Jones · Jul 3, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
Quite. I have yet to claim membership of any elite, merely an aspiration.

You seem to have accumulated the accoutrement, while waiting to be invited to the dance. I do hope you're not left on the shelf; having mastered the fine art of looking down your nose, t'would be a shame to find no one beneath you. We would not want you to pass your aspiration date.

c6h6o3 · Jul 3, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
But was it not Dorothy Parker who remarked (of quotes in general, not this one in particular) 'We all assume that Oscar said it'?

I certainly hope so. Ya gotta love her.

DBP · Jul 3, 2006

Ed Sukach said:
I think I can say this simply: I am NOT an elitist. I do NOT desire to be part of an "elite" group, nor will I support one with that motive.

I have been vilified and ostracized for that very attitude. There are many in the "Art World", or at least in the local art world, who feel that stratification ... where they are considered to be at the "top" level... is necessary - "What else are we doing this for ?" The consequenses of questioning - or even suggesting opposition to that premise can be severe.

I am not so facetiously altruistic that I will claim that I do not notice, or enjoy, a little adulation from time to time, but the question is "How do you get that adulation?".
If I have to do anything that will cause grief to another, I refuse. Status, adulation, a "good review", is not worth the penalty I will pay in terms of negative impact to something precious to me ... my belief system.
I CHOOSE an Omar Khayyam approach: I will leave the Oriental Court political maneuvering to those to whom it is important. I only want a place where I can "do" my chosen obsession. With Khayyam, it was mathematics; Mine is photography.

"I think the rose ne'er blows so red
As the grave where some buried Ceasar bled.
A jug of wine, a loaf of bread
And thou, beside me, singing in the wilderness.
Ah, wilderness is paradise enow."

My jug of wine is my camera and film; my bread is light. My wilderness, the studio, darkroom, location, exhibition space.

I may leave this world unrecognized, destitute ... of low social status.
One thing is certain - it will be a long time until the smile leaves my face - if ever.

I've always agreed with Woody Allen on this one.

I'd never join a club that would allow a person like me to become a member. - Woody Allen

Tony Egan · Jul 3, 2006

DBP said:
I've always agreed with Woody Allen on this one.

Actually if you believe what he said in Annie Hall he attributes this to Groucho Marx.

Tony Egan · Jul 3, 2006

It seems to be OK to talk about "elite athletes". Using one's physical gifts to achieve world class performance is acceptable. When it comes to political, intellectual and artistic pursuits it seems to become more of a pejorative term. (Elitist = snob) In Australian politics it is used by the right wing government and its talkback radio parrots to deride anyone on the left with power, money or influence. It seems shocking to the right that anyone with money or power should not share their views, therefore making theme "elitist" i.e. they are really acting superior to their underlying support base and therefore being hypocritical or disingenuous about their beliefs. Clever politics because it is primarily the right side of politics and business with the money, power and influence making them the elite; not the "champagne socialists".

Would I like to be known as an "elite photographer". Probably not. Would I refer to the so-called masters of photography as the "elite" of this art form? Probably an acceptable phrase in the right context but the word has been poisoned a bit lately.

DBP · Jul 3, 2006

I knew anti-intellectualism had a long and sorry history in the US, of which the dual use of the term 'elite' is a symptom, but didn't know it was shared elsewhere in the English-speaking world. I'm very sad now, may go back to bed.

WarEaglemtn · Jul 5, 2006

"Or as another friend pointed out when I mentioned fencing at school, "The working classes don't fence."
Here in the Western US with ranches and farms a lot of us fence. Days spent traipsing over the mountains with a horse loaded with extra barbed wire, posthole digger and other assorted stuff to fix the fences that break down with the winter snows...
Or did you mean the stuff with swords? Maybe that IS elitest?

At any rate, many believe that those who use larger than 35mm are 'elitest'. We run into that where I live often. Must be something about others having what you don't. And yes, the term is not one of complementing those who take the time to haul around the bigger gear or spend more time on their images.

For some reason it goes hand in hand with the idea of "artsy-fartsy" and "hoity-toity" as derogatory monikers given to those who take time with their work. Go to a gallery and see the work of those who spend the time to do their very best and listen to some comments. Often not praise but denigrating. It is too bad this happens. Even if I don't like the work I know the photographer is actually doing something rather than sitting back and watching while repeating the tired old refrain of 'I could have done that'.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Jul 5, 2006

I've been through the my-school-is-better-than-yours circles since after high school, and I don't think there's one word that made me more unconfortable than being called "elite." Why? Because it is always carried with a sense of entitlement. My CEGEP professors (a bastard school degree between high school and uni in Québec) used to call us the elite, and by doing so they implied that our status entailed automatic success, and that we deserved thus a bigger part of the cake. That made me sick.

So I haven't retreated to a blind egalitarianism. I believe in quality, work, effort and success, but as something that is earned.

Take Brasil in the World Cup for instance. Weren't they the elite? Weren't they supposed to win without shedding an eyelash? Yes! And they lost miserably. That, in sum, is the failure of such conception of "elite" : you rest on your laurels even when they catch fire.

catem · Jul 7, 2006

Or as Miss Jean Brodie put it, "La Crème de la Crème". The thing about cream (and élites) is that it can easily "go off" given the right circumstances; i.e. it's very vulnerable to, and therefore resistant to, change of any sort.

That's why élites run the risk of getting their heads chopped off (either that and/or turning very smelly) and therefore they're best avoided at all costs.

Ed Sukach · Jul 7, 2006

I value being "equal" far above being "elite". No contest.

blansky · Jul 7, 2006

Everybody is equal.

It's just that some people are more equal than others.

Michael

Earl Dunbar · Jul 7, 2006

As with many words, 'elite' can have multiple meanings, connotations and implications depending on context, the intent of the person using it, etc.

This whole thread is a much ado about... IMO.

catem · Jul 8, 2006

blansky said:
Everybody is equal.

It's just that some people are more equal than others.

Michael

Oink

Papa Tango · Jul 8, 2006

blansky said:
Everybody is equal.

It's just that some people are more equal than others.

Michael

Yup. Karl and Friedrich could never quite get their heads around that one. Well, some things always work well on paper. C. Wright Mills, anyone?

Christopher Walrath · Jul 8, 2006

I have never been talked down to when seeking an answer, I;ll give that to you PUGGERS. But I have been talked down. Twice in a week when offering one by someone wishing to sharpen their teeth on my opinion and of course those people had no idea what they had done that I could possibly even feel the slightest affronted. But I did, and this happened at betterphoto.com about six or seven times spread out over two different periods of time. But I beleive that we are all different people when writing than when speaking. Not only our vocabulary but also our attitudes. We have more time to thjink about it. For the most part I think it sucks and it is the reason I left betterphoto.com and would like Sean to erase me membership info and such. Not because of the elite, but because of an elitist attitude that I just CAN'T BLODDY STAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just let me go without well wishes or little baby comments and I'll see ya later.

Maris · Jul 10, 2006

Photography, like everything else conducted at the highest level, becomes elitest. Most people have more important things to do such as making the house payments, keeping the car running, and getting the kids through school. In the end, however, it is elite photographers who leave a material residue of their lives that survives the fading recollections of a couple of generations.

When all the photographs are gathered up and there are no more to be done it all amounts to very slim baggage for a journey into eternity. But most folks jump into forever with little and leave less.

Elitism

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