Electrolysis of Silver Halides on Glass or Film, No Gelatin Film

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I found a way in my mind to not mix silver with gelatin but directly electrolysis the silver halides on to glass or plastic. Does it work ?

Umut

 

[AgX]

Something close to your idea is the daguerreotype process.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

AgX, I dont want to read countless web pages now , can you please briefly explain ? Thanks.

 

[AgX]

The base material in a Daguerreotype is a silver plar. But it also can be another material electroplated with silver. The Halide then is formed by bathing in a bath countaining Iodine.

Electrolysis of a Silverhalide makes no sense technically. You likely mixed up terms.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The gelatin in an emulsion is not just an inert support structure for the silver halide. It provides sulfur atoms which form sensitive sites when the emulsion is exposed. Years ago Kodak tried to eliminate gelatin in their films replacing it with such things a polyvinylpyrrolidone. They found that only s small amount of the gelatin could be replaced. The research was a failure. The emulsions that resulted were VERY slow.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Gerald,

Where does sulfur comes from ? I had been posted another no emulsion thread was about replacing gelatin with pva. I think I have strong sense and everything I post result with a old research or sometimes not.

AgX,

I mean with silver halide , silver iodide or silver bromide. Cant I find them in ready form to electrolysis to glass or should I need to follow dag two step formula ?

Gerald, AgX,

Are dags slow to expose ?

 

[jeffreythree]

A quick internet search shows Polaroid patented a silver halide electrolysis process in '77, patent #4060419.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Thank you Jeffrey , I will write more after patent reading.

 

[AgX]

But I don't think that is what Umut has in mind.

Also the terrm "electrolysis" in the patent title is misleading to some degree: as with classic emulsion making you start with ions.
Only that in this case you do not start from two salts and mixing them, but from one (the Silver-Halide), electrolyses it and the let the ions precipitate again.
That process does not involve any substrate-coating mechanism as Umut was referring to.
That was the reason I stated before that electrolysis does not make sense. In this respect, I meant.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

How can We coat a plastic or glass with Silveriodide with one step , simple method ? I think AgX is right and problem remains to be answered . What do you say AgX ?

 

[AgX]

There are indeed completely different ways of obtaining a silver-halide coating on a substrate.

But these typically are beyond the scope of the amateur.
They also yield a coating less sensitive than you are used to.

The most practical way thus still would be the Daguerreotype.

 

[AgX]

With all alternative ways on would have to consider:

-) the "yield" (the photographic effectiveness)

-) the "effort" (something usefull for some experiment or even some special amateur requirement or fun, may be totally uneconomic for industrial use)

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The sulfur comes from sulfur containing amino acids in the gelatin. This is why the source of the gelatin is so important in emulsion making.

 

[AgX]

That is the historic approach:
Testing batches and blending them for yielding the desired result.

The more predictable way is to de-activate the gelatin and then custom activate it again.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Thank you AgX and Gerald,

Are todays films good as dags ? I read dags have limitless amount of resolution ? Is it true , what do you say ? If henry william jackson had had been used dags , could he make these enourmous masterpieces ? How do you compare ?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The limit of resolution of daguerreotypes is controlled by the lens used and other variabes. It cannot be limitless.

 

[AgX]

You made a good point though Umut. The Daguerreotype had been neglected in photoengineering literature.

However I guess those who refer to limitless resolution (aside of that being questionable...), only think of the latent image, but do do not consider the development.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Thank you Gerald and AgX,

I found a forum on dags and found there spectral sensivity graph. Its very tight peak at blue range. If I order a filter just like that graph , can I get same look from panchromatic 35mm film or what do I needed to do ?

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

does below color chart and its dags compatible with above graph ?