Effective Agitation for semi-stand developing? preventing uneven development?

[fbfotografie]

I just started with developing my own B&W film using Rodinol 100+1, semi stand, agitation during the first minute, then every 20 min 5 agitations. Total time 60min. Used Tri-x and Fomapan 400 (120 film).

Unfortunately the results are inconsitant. Sometimes there is no uneven development, sometimes there is. I tried to increase the developer from the required 500ml to 600ml but without any real improvement.

I don't understant why sertain people DO get uneven development, while others don't see this effect. That is the reason why I have opened this topic. I would like to hear YOUR thoughts about uneven development and stand developing. I would like to hear your opinion about:

- The best way to aggitate; swirls/180 degree flips/360 degree flips/shaking/tapping/rolling etc..
- How many aggitiations? time?
- More or less developer in the tank?
- The reel at the bottom of the tank of create (~0,5cm?) some space?

Thank you!

I would like to use stand developing in the future for pushed Tri-x films, with should produce a finer grain.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Is there any pattern to which film gives uneven development? Foma vs Tri-X?
Standing development is tricky business, and maybe not the best way to learn. If I were you I'd try agitating with three minute intervals and develop for however long it takes to get good printable negatives. You can get almost the same results, mackie lines and everything, but much safer.

 

[fbfotografie]

I did not see great differences between the Fomapan en Tri-x (i like tri-x better do), but I do find more uneven development at the center of the reel.

 

[darkosaric]

When I do semi stand (40-60min rodinal 1+100) I always fill tank with 700ml (it leaves a lot of air to make good agitation), one or two rolls, and for the first 30 sec strong agitation, then tapping on bottom to remove air bubbles, and 5 strong agitation (very strong) after half time, tapping again. I had no problems - usually I do semi stand with efke films.

 

[fbfotografie]

Darko, what do you mean by strong agitation. Is it shaking or just many 180 degree turnovers?

Ps. great pictures on your site btw.

 

[Helinophoto]

I use the agitation method from the caffenol blog: Agitation first 30sec, then agitation at 2, 4, 8, 16 and at the 32'th minute, then let stand to 70 minutes.
Worked just fine the last time I did it, but I've never done with 120 film.

I think this is a good method, because you agitate more, as the developer is most active, the last part of the journey is probably dominated by a lesser active development process, requiring less agitation perhaps?

If I did it with 120 film, I would make damn sure that the reels were covered very well and really smack the tank on my hand after every agitation turn, to make sure the reel wasn't stuck above the developer in the tank.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

So, why not try Rodinal 1+100, with at least 5ml of concentrate per roll of film, but agitating every 3 minutes? You might find yourself developing for about 30 minutes with Tri-X underexposed one stop (EI 800), and 40 minutes underexposed two stops (1600). Two full inversions every three minutes, and slow agitation for the full first minute. I'm pretty sure you'd get similar results to semi-stand but with much less problems. What have you got to lose?

But if you really must continue with standing development, be prepared for issues, even though you might see some benefits with the longer developing time (a bit more shadow detail).

120 film is a lot more susceptible to issues with uneven development than 35mm, and I'm not sure anybody can say with scientific certainty WHY it works flawlessly time and again for some, and other people see problems. I wish you the best of luck!

 

[pgomena]

I'm agitating film in a 1/2 or 1-liter tank for 1 minute continuously and then 2 inversions every 3 minutes over a 12-minute period. I'm getting very even development and good, sharp negatives with no excessive edge effects. I'm using 120 Agfa APX100 and Fuji Acros in Pyrocat HD. This is for "normal" images. For "plus 1" I just shorten the period between agitation cycles to 2 minutes and invert the tanks 3 times.

Peter Gomena

 

[jcoldslabs]

Lately I have been developing my 4x5 sheet film in a JOBO tank on a reel using HC-110 dil. G (1:119) with gentle agitation the first full minute by inversion and then ONE gentle inversion every five minutes for 25 minutes total. That amounts to only four proper inversions after the initial round, unless you count the pour-out as one. No problems, nothing uneven, with a nice compensating effect in the highlights.

Jonathan

 

[Ronald Moravec]

Stand and semi stand will surprise you eventually. That is why you never see it in manufactures instructions,it is not 100% reliable.

As far as agitation goes, any scheme that replenishes the developer over the full surface of the film will do. More does not help, less can leave local areas of lower density.

Streaking is bromide drag which is a byproduct of the developing process which inhibits further development locally when it runs down the film. Insufficient agitation will leave the bromide in place causing streaking.

Rodinal 1:100 will work fine for 10 sec per minute. 7 inversions in 10 sec is ok, then put the reel in the water bath and twist it 1/3 turn so you randomize the flow .

Agitation needs to be vigorous enough to replenish over the whole surface and random enough so as not to set up flow patterns that may cause underdeveloped area. Contrary to what you may read, they are not "surge marks", but simply areas that got under replenished.

Start by following standard procedures, then branch out to experimental things with test films and see if they benefit you. Think of it this way, you do not take student driver in Formula 1 cars or learn to run before walking.

 

[darkosaric]

Darko, what do you mean by strong agitation. Is it shaking or just many 180 degree turnovers?

Ps. great pictures on your site btw.

180 degree with very fast agitation - it is hard for me to explain: while turning 180 degree I also make a shake - something like mixing a cocktail drink.

and thanks for compliment

 

[fbfotografie]

Everybody, thanks for your reaction, keep them coming.

To be honest, patients is not one of my strong sites. I know that during the excitement of shooting my exposure can be 1 or 2 stops off....well, when shooting digital this is not a real problem...shooting film I can imaging this is an somewhat different story. That's the main reason I was interested in semi-stand. If you can develop different speed films in the same solution, you can also develop frames shot with different exposures on the same film without over- or under developing.

To show that my semi-stand developing is not a complete failure, some shots from this weekend:

More grain so underexposed?

On the left you see the uneven developing.

 

[Newt_on_Swings]

I think lots of people get a bit to technical with stand development. When I do it, I usually throw caution to the wind. The process it self is designed for much looser variables than regular development, from EI, to temps, to volume of liquids, and agitation consistency. Everyone may have their method, but in the end there is very little difference in outcome.

Some key things though: when using rodinal, there must be atleast 3.5ml of concentrated developer per roll of 36exp or 120 film. More water is always better than less (so 1:100 is 3.5ml:350ml but 375-425ml is ok as well). If using 2 reel tanks, only 1 reel should be loaded with film. Only do 2 rolls of film if you have a larger tank. Dont attempt this in single reel tanks.

Semi stand works much better than stand. I like to agitate initially only for 20 seconds, and somewhere at the halfway mark I do 2 gentle inversions. Sometimes I leave it for an hour, usually I forget, or dont watch the clock at the start and it goes over, 10, 20, 30min. Not a big deal.

I find that you have to find the right combination of film for stand development, some just dont look good at all in it, other shine. What you have looks fine. The dog photo looks great, nice tones. For the street musician, I think it has to do more with the lens flare than it has to do with exposure limiting your contrast in that scene, but the semi stand development probably helped bring out a lot of detail that would have been lost, such as within the trumpet, and the shadow areas on the back of his jacket or the details on the pavement.

Do a few more rolls, and you can develop your own preferred way for semistand.

 

[Athiril]

I haven't had uneven development with Rodinal stand, and I only fill the tank as much to cover the reel. But I always pre-soak. And give 30 sec of initial agitation.

I disagree with the above 3.5ml thing. I only use enough solution to cover the reels, whether it is 1+100, 1+125, 1+150 or 1+200.



Too much agitation and then letting it sit for some time would cause uneven development I would think, as you're increasing the developer activity.

Try less agitation, ie; initial 30 secs gentle agitation after a presoak. Then do a pure stand, or do 2 gentle inversions in the middle of the time for semi-stand.

1+100 is also too strong for some films.

 

[Helinophoto]

Love the dog picture, lovely tones.

A little dark, but after all, it's a photo of a black dog on a dark couch and one light source ^^

 

[jmcaimi]

I haven't had uneven development with Rodinal stand, and I only fill the tank as much to cover the reel. But I always pre-soak. And give 30 sec of initial agitation.

I disagree with the above 3.5ml thing. I only use enough solution to cover the reels, whether it is 1+100, 1+125, 1+150 or 1+200.



Too much agitation and then letting it sit for some time would cause uneven development I would think, as you're increasing the developer activity.

Try less agitation, ie; initial 30 secs gentle agitation after a presoak. Then do a pure stand, or do 2 gentle inversions in the middle of the time for semi-stand.

1+100 is also too strong for some films.

Two rolls of 35mm film in 700ml water with Rodinal (Adonal) 1+100 in a standard double 35mm reel tank, developed with s/stand, one minute first agitation and two inversion at half, sometimes gets uneven development. I would say that this happens only with the lower margin of the film sitting at the bottom. It makes me think that chemicals is slowly depositing at the bottom for an uneven concentration throughout the tank.
So... a) should I switch to a larger tank using more soup. b) make two middle 20min intervals agitations insetad of one. c) follow the groudbreaking advise of Athril and agitate less, ignoring the more soup 3,5ml rule?

 

[Alan Johnson]

See the comment by DF Cardwell in the link.He has 40 years experience and recons 5 min maximum rest time for 120 and 10 min for 35mm.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[jmcaimi]

See the comment by DF Cardwell in the link.He has 40 years experience and recons 5 min maximum rest time for 120 and 10 min for 35mm.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Thanks for the link Alan. As far as I understand the parameters are: Rodinal 1+100, minimal agitation every 10 minutes (for 35mm). Time should be adjusted accordingly then. As a rule of thumb I could guess something like 40 minutes? Have you ever tested the 10 minutes interval agitation yourself for 1:100 Rodinal soup?

 

[baachitraka]

I may also recommend DF Cardwell's article on shaping the tone curve,

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Everybody, thanks for your reaction, keep them coming.

To be honest, patients is not one of my strong sites. I know that during the excitement of shooting my exposure can be 1 or 2 stops off....well, when shooting digital this is not a real problem...shooting film I can imaging this is an somewhat different story. That's the main reason I was interested in semi-stand. If you can develop different speed films in the same solution, you can also develop frames shot with different exposures on the same film without over- or under developing.

It is always best to expose film accurately. However it is better to over-expose then under-expose.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I think lots of people get a bit to technical with stand development. When I do it, I usually throw caution to the wind. The process it self is designed for much looser variables than regular development, from EI, to temps, to volume of liquids, and agitation consistency. Everyone may have their method, but in the end there is very little difference in outcome.

Stand development was designed for tonal compression sometimes needed with the Zone System. For this purpose attention to detail is just as important as with other developing methods. It was not designed for people so they could cut corners. The best negatives are produced by observing the rules.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Thanks for the link Alan. As far as I understand the parameters are: Rodinal 1+100, minimal agitation every 10 minutes (for 35mm). Time should be adjusted accordingly then. As a rule of thumb I could guess something like 40 minutes? Have you ever tested the 10 minutes interval agitation yourself for 1:100 Rodinal soup?

Yes, 30-40 min seems about right, as mentioned in post 7.I have tested 10min rest period but generally use 5 min when semi-stand developing, de-camp with developing tank and clock to my other work and just keep an eye on the clock.

 

[Eric Rose]

I generally do semi-stand on 4x5 (Efke PL100 rated at 50asa). 23 minutes in PyroCat-HD 1:1:100. I give it 15 seconds of initial agitation and then another 15 seconds at the half way mark. I employ hangers in a 1.3ltr tank. If I have lots of open cloudless skies I usually go back to regular development protocols just to be safe.

 

[jmcaimi]

Yes, 30-40 min seems about right, as mentioned in post 7.I have tested 10min rest period but generally use 5 min when semi-stand developing, de-camp with developing tank and clock to my other work and just keep an eye on the clock.

Ok I'll test on tri-x the Rodinal 1:100 for 40min with minimal agitation every 10 minutes formula.
... And last (bnl) do you care about minimal amount of Rodinal in the soup? 3,5ml for each film are enough?

 

[Alan Johnson]

Ok I'll test on tri-x the Rodinal 1:100 for 40min with minimal agitation every 10 minutes formula.
... And last (bnl) do you care about minimal amount of Rodinal in the soup? 3,5ml for each film are enough?

I use 500ml tanks but I don't recall any grumbles from users of smaller tanks so as mentioned in post 13 3.5ml is likely OK.