Edward Weston Nude #62 (dancer's Knees)

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Trask

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So I've been walking around the past couple of days since this thread started looking at objects illuminated by the sun, trying to put my eye along the axis of the sunlight without casting a shadow on the object. Closing one eye to simulate a camera lens. Today, for example, I was staring at a round pipe for a while (people must have wondered...) and did see that as the pipe curved outward, it did seem to get darker. But nothing as seen in the Weston print.

So are we discussing an optical effect that happens all the time but we just don't notice it that much, or is the effect seen in the Weston print the result of the photographic process -- Mackie lines and such? And thus variable by paper, developer, process, etc? I imagine the answer to both questions is "yes" but perhaps those more in tune with optical matters have a more informed view.
 

Bill Burk

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Flat light, then developed longer, will create "more" contrast than your eye sees.
 

Bill Burk

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...such a definite black line, that even photographers swear I have pencilled the negative

Thanks Jim,

No I accept it's a straight unretouched negative. But if the floor was a little dusty, those really do appear to be footprints. It doesn't look like "a lot" of charcoal, and if the light was flat and the negative developed longer, then light dust would darken to charcoal. There doesn't even have to be that much of it.

Anyone know if dancers prefer dust on the floor, like mountain climbers chalk their hands, during a performance?
 

cliveh

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Edward Weston's Day Books, entry dated 3/6/29

"My best work is more analogous to architecture and sculpture than to painting. I made a posterior view, in flat, but very brilliant light, which outlines the figure with such a definite black line, that even photographers swear I have pencilled the negative,--I have used this light before on the dancing nudes."

Also, in the daybooks, Weston mentioned that he never uses artificial light...only natural light.

I believe this outline can also be seen lightly in the Charis nudes in the dunes.

As a side point...I have the Knees print in (at least) two books and noticed that they each are a different crop and contrast. I guess book prints always have to be taken with a grain of salt.

I vaguely remember reading more on this outline effect but know not where.

Hope this helps,
Jim

Thanks for that Gim, or should that be Jim. Now can someone explain that in the form of a lighting diagram?
 
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Start of Charis days, Excerpt from last few pages of Daybooks. Happy reading.

24. “Peace to enjoy, fulfill, this beauty—”
December 9, 1934. I have not opened this book for almost 8 months,—and with
good reason; I have been too busy, busy living. I notice the last entry was 4-20.
On 4-22 a new love came into my life, a most beautiful one, one which will,
I believe, stand the test of time.
I met C. [Charis Wilson]—a short time before going South on the P.W.A.P.
work, saw her at a concert, was immediately attracted, and asked to be intro
duced. I certainly had no conscious designs in mind at the time, but I am not
in the habit of asking for introductions to anyone which means that the attraction
was stronger then than I realized. I saw this tall, beautiful girl, with finely
proportioned body, intelligent face well-freckled, blue eyes, golden brown hair
to shoulders,—and had to meet. Fortunately this was easy. Her brother was
already one of my good friends, which I, of course, did not know.
I left for the south before our paths crossed again. While there a letter from S.
said she had a new model for me, one with a beautiful body. It was C.------ Poor
S.------ How ironical. But what happened was inevitable.
The first nudes of C. were easily amongst the finest I had done, perhaps the
finest. I was definitely interested now, and knew that she knew I was. I felt a
response. But I am slow, even when I feel sure, especially if I am deeply moved.
I did not wait long before making the second series which was made on April
22, a day to always remember. I knew now what was coming; eyes don’t lie
and she wore no mask. Even so I opened a bottle of wine to help build up my
ego. You see I really wanted C. hence my hesitation.
And I worked with hesitation; photography had a bad second place. I made
some eighteen negatives, delaying always delaying, until at last she lay there
below me waiting, holding my eyes with hers. And I was lost and have been
ever since. A new and important chapter in my life opened on Sunday afternoon,
April 22, 1934.
After eight months we are closer together than ever. Perhaps C. will be remem
bered as the great love of my life. Already I have achieved certain heights
reached with no other love.
Domestic relations have been severely strained, quite to the breaking point,
casting a shadow over my association with C. A change must take place and
soon. I must have peace to enjoy, fulfill, this beauty.
283

PART IV
Carmel, April, 22, 1944

April 22, 1944. —Carmel—Ten years ago today on a Sunday afternoon was the
beginning; now Charis and I are married, have been for five years. This is the
first entry in my once-well-kept daybook since 1934. I laughingly blame Ch.
for cramping my style as a writer—and there may be some truth in this charge—
but the fact is that I have not had much time, nor necessary aloneness for keeping
an intimate journal.
In no period of my life has there been a comparable series of important events,
coming one upon another as if to crowd into ten years all that might happen
to some in a lifetime. I doubt if I can take time to recall more than the high
lights of these years, or scratch the surface of all the changes which in turn
have changed me, colored my thoughts, directed my actions. Without com
ment—not until in some later entry explanation is necessary—
I will write down some of the outstanding events and experiences of these
missing ten years; incidents, of course, especially concerning me. It will be
obvious soon enough—if I go on writing—what such a cataclysm as the war
has done to me. So this list, without too much pride and with shameless prejudice.
1935: I left my Carmel, once-happy-home, and moved to S. Monica where
Brett and I with Cole and Neil set up housekeeping with an eye open for sit
tings. 1936: Charis came to live with me. 1937: I received a Guggenheim
Fellowship, the first ever granted a photographer; renewal in 1938. We traveled
35,000 miles mostly through California as told in that exciting book California
and the West by Charis Wilson Weston—so well-told that I need not recount
any of the Guggenheim period. 1938: Moved to Carmel Highlands because of
H. L’s [Harry Leon Wilson, writer, father of Charis] sickness. Neil built us a
one-big-room house which Walter Arensberg calls the palatial shack. 1938:
divorced Flora after 16 years separation. 1939: married Charis after 5 years of
sin. 1941: Contract with Limited Editions Club Inc., N. Y. to illustrate Leaves
of Grass', we travel cross-country for 10 months covering 20,000 miles, 24 states,
from the old South to Maine. This story will also be told, God and Charis
willing. Travel was done during a national emergency. When war broke out we
scurried home. Charis did not want to scurry. I did.
Many deaths have saddened these last 10 years, but two were especially poignant
to me—Tina and Ramiel. Tina returned to Mexico to die. Ramiel went to
sleep in his little Redondo home, after a long painful struggle. Tina and Ramiel,
always linked in my mind, always clasped to my heart.
287
“Oh, there will pass with your great passing
Little of beauty not your own,—”
Edna St. Vincent Millay
One birth has gladdened; Erica, born to Brett and Cicely, my first granddaugh
ter, and the first girl in the family.
Something almost worse than death came to my only sister Mary—a stroke
which crippled her right side. She has come through in heroic fashion, learning
to write with left hand, learning to walk, to talk.
 

Gim

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Eddie didn't need no stinking diagram. I think, put the sun behind your head...move head...take picture. My best guess.

Thanks for that Gim, or should that be Jim. Now can someone explain that in the form of a lighting diagram?
 

cliveh

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Eddie didn't need no stinking diagram. I think, put the sun behind your head...move head...take picture. My best guess.

I'm sure Eddie didn't, but myself and others may benefit from a visual representation of the lighting employed. Particularly as this is daylight as mentioned in previous posts.
 

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hi clive

>---------- X

the light is parallel to the lens not an angle down to the subject or from the side at an angle, but straight on ...
if he used a bulb flash on his SLR, he probably removed the flash from the side mount and held it across the top of the camera above the bellows to the subject.

there were papers back then that had graphite like tones ... some of ilya1963's azo prints have that same look to them .. really beautiful stuff.

john
 

cliveh

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hi clive

>---------- X

the light is parallel to the lens not an angle down to the subject or from the side at an angle, but straight on ...
if he used a bulb flash on his SLR, he probably removed the flash from the side mount and held it across the top of the camera above the bellows to the subject.

there were papers back then that had graphite like tones ... some of ilya1963's azo prints have that same look to them .. really beautiful stuff.

john

Thanks John.
 

clayne

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You guys crack me up with the "oh there are no good papers available now which are capable of what they had back in the day" stuff.

PLEASE!
 
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hi clive

>---------- X

the light is parallel to the lens not an angle down to the subject or from the side at an angle, but straight on ...
if he used a bulb flash on his SLR, he probably removed the flash from the side mount and held it across the top of the camera above the bellows to the subject.

there were papers back then that had graphite like tones ... some of ilya1963's azo prints have that same look to them .. really beautiful stuff.

john

So, are you suggesting that he used an SLR and bulb flash ? Seriously ? And it had a bellows ??
 

removed account4

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So, are you suggesting that he used an SLR and bulb flash ? Seriously ? And it had a bellows ??

weston used a graflex slr ( i think 3x4 ? ) which had a small bellows
usually the flash attached to the side ( at least with super d's i see images
with side mounted flashes ..
like the graflites on the speed graphic ... same orientation .. )
but my guess is he held the flash over the lens plane ..

but who knows, i certainly have no idea what he did or how he did it, its just a guess :smile:

You guys crack me up with the "oh there are no good papers available now which are capable of what they had back in the day" stuff.

PLEASE!

hey clayne .. not saying there aren't papers available today that can't do that sort of stuff, im saying that some of the papers were "different"
and rendered differently. the portrait lady i worked for used to tell me that some papers had a tooth to them ...
so if areas were too dark you could abrade them with fine grit sand paper and even rub graphite into the emulsion ...
i've tried to do that with every paper i have had since 1988, and it didn't really work ...
not better, but different ...
 

cliveh

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hi clive

>---------- X

the light is parallel to the lens not an angle down to the subject or from the side at an angle, but straight on ...
if he used a bulb flash on his SLR, he probably removed the flash from the side mount and held it across the top of the camera above the bellows to the subject.

there were papers back then that had graphite like tones ... some of ilya1963's azo prints have that same look to them .. really beautiful stuff.

john

John, re the flash you mention, I notice on Gim's/Jim's previous post from the daybooks - "Also, in the daybooks, Weston mentioned that he never uses artificial light...only natural light." Do you think he could still get this line effect with natural light parallel to the lens? I'm still a bit confused about how he did this.

Also, can someone enlighten me as to what he meant by - "My best work is more analogous to architecture and sculpture than to painting. I made a posterior view, in flat, but very brilliant light, which outlines the figure with such a definite black line, that even photographers swear I have pencilled the negative,--I have used this light before on the dancing nudes."

Surely if you pencil the negative, you produce a white line when printed, not black.
 
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removed account4

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probably exactly as jim said it
i've never read his daybooks ... and really don't know much about his technique ..

sorry
 

lxdude

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Surely if you pencil the negative, you produce a white line when printed, not black.

Not if you use a white colored pencil!

Oh wait...

umm..

never mind!



:whistling:
 

Bill Burk

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Surely if you pencil the negative, you produce a white line when printed, not black.

Surely "pencil the negative" was spoken derisively about retouching in general.

But specifically a little pencil right at the edge would lighten an edge and that would enhance edge effects.
 

winger

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Surely "pencil the negative" was spoken derisively about retouching in general.

But specifically a little pencil right at the edge would lighten an edge and that would enhance edge effects.

Weston hated retouching and finally got to a point in his portrait business (which he did fairly reluctantly to begin with) when he said he would not retouch anyone's portrait.
I think he was more likely to print straight from the neg as compared to AA.
 

chip j

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I have seen many Weston books in my 66 yrs, icl. reading the Daybooks twice, and I recall it being ID'ed as a Partial Soloraization.
 
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weston used a graflex slr ( i think 3x4 ? ) which had a small bellows
usually the flash attached to the side ( at least with super d's i see images
with side mounted flashes ..
like the graflites on the speed graphic ... same orientation .. )
but my guess is he held the flash over the lens plane ..

but who knows, i certainly have no idea what he did or how he did it, its just a guess :smile:

OK, I have to admit that I didn't know that he used such small cameras, I always had him in my mind intimately attached to this size of camera:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.sh...ed/2008/01/02/edward_weston_1937_0329_lat.jpg

image.html
 

cliveh

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So now are we moving back to saying it was a sabattier effect and that penciling does not really mean what its name suggests?
 
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