Edwal Yellow and Blue toner - any experience?

[johnielvis]

got some and am washing right now....did film and it doesn't look like it took...tried 10' at the 15:1...this is the red stuff....1/2 hour wash and now drying...looks like nothing happened (so far).

next I put in for 1/2 hour...these are black and white transparencies--wash for 1/2 hour....maybe a little color but that could be stuff that wouldn't wash out in the highlights...that's drying

right now I'm washing one I put in at double strength 7:1 and left in for 1/2 hour...still red stuff is coming out....I also putin a piece of film that was only developed on one side and just soaked in water till film dyes came out....that was in just in to see if maybe there was residual hypo causing problems---anyways...1/2 of that was pure silver halide--no development, so even if the ferricyanide didn't work, that should be colored (I'm thinking)....I'll hang it up and got to bed....

the edwal pamphlet says that it's usable on movie film...so ok...this better work.

you know them orange crystals that you gotta mix up--thats ferricyanide (almost certainly)--msds says it contains ferricyanide and that what that stuff looks like--anyways..that's a small amount but I've bleached whole sheets of film clean with VERY dilute solutions of that stuff...ALARM...wash is now done....more later

 

[tkamiya]

Yes, that stuff is ferri.... I'm not sure if you are supposed to wash for that long. When I did RC, less than 5 minutes wash is all it required. Even with FB, at 30 minutes mark, good portion of the color has dissolved off the emulsion.

 

[Vaughn]

Here is the formula I have made up for students. Its been awhile since anyone asked me to mix some up, but it seemed to work fine.

From Elementary Photographic Chemistry (Eastman Kodak Company), 1941:

Formula T-12 -- Blue toner for paper

In separate containers, dissolve the below separately in about 250ml water each:

Ferric Ammonium Citrate -- 4.0 grams
Oxalic Acid -- 4.0 grams
Potassium Ferricyanide -- 4.0 grams

Filter each before mixing together (actually I never do)

Mix the three together.

Add water to make 1 liter

Immerse well washed print for 10 to 15 minutes until desired tone is achieved.
Wash until highlights clear.

There is another toner formula for slides and films (T-11) -- with instructions for making 120 gallons! For the motion picture industry, I guess!

 

[johnielvis]

THAT's what I"m looking for--films and slides--I'm trying to do film
I tried again and it doesn't get to the silver--the bleach is obviously too weak for the heavy silver content of the reversal developed tri-x---the color gets in the highlights and does kind of color all of it, but the silver still looks like silver.

I've seen some where you first bleach then dye--that's probably what I need---bleach till it looks bleached--that silver is very thick and dense in the shadows, but I've read where the more the silver the more the dye will adhere if done right, so it's just a matter of finding the right bleach strength and time and then putting in a dye--I guess the rit dyes will be what I'll be using then...first want to get this red toner working as it's bought and pre-mixed--so first things first is get a stronger bleach solution and try that...

the red toner trys I've done certainly DO change the color--but allover tint kind of....not deep in the silver--there is still silver - a - plenty--that shows that the bleaching is not sufficient I guess....more experimenting to come....

 

[Vaughn]

If I have time, I'll post Formula T-11 later in the day -- or scan the page.

 

[Vaughn]

Blue toner for film

 

[Vaughn]

Matt,

I thought BLUE was an iron blue toner. My understanding is that component of the toner reacts with silver in the image and turns into dye - in turn toning that location. So.... I thought it will affect the shadow and leave the highlight alone. Instructions say to wash long enough to clear the highlight.

I did that and everything washed off.... very very very vague hint of blue remained but it hardly left any color....

Note that the above formula warns against long washes in water that is alkaline. How's your water?

 

[johnielvis]

Thanks for the formula...120 gallons--wow--i don't think my bathtub is that big...lemme print this out and read it through....

although it looks like this would only be good for it's intended color--but may work out in the end if I need blue--I wanted to use red and green 2 color process, but if I can find no mordant process that works, then it'll be the straight toners like this--no reason why red/blue won't work.

what I'm looking for is one that will mordant the silver and allow me to use the dye of my choice to color it--apparently this worked though and 1lb ferricyanide per 120 gallons is like almost exactly 1g/l...way less concentration than what is NOT working for my mordant....hmmmm maybe the trick is to tone soltuion/rinse/tone solution/rinse and build it up like I've seen mentioned....i think I'm going to order the forumulary toners and see...it looks like the forumulary copper toner can also function as a mordant too from what else I'm reading...like the copper salts are better than the silver salts for holding the dye.

 

[johnielvis]

well--I ordered the toners...in the meantime I took a positive and plopped in the recommended concentration for the night---I tried building it up but after 4 trys (5' each) with subsequent washes...it didn't look like the dense areas were being affected at all--since my time is finite--in it goes and see what HOURS will do to the reaction--I just read some moviemaker stating that his tonings last DAYS...so that got me thinking...maybe that's the ticket--lots of silver gonna take lots of time in the chemicals...we tomorrow morning we'll see see if the brute method works...

 

[johnielvis]

in the morning I saw red (tone) on the shadows and thought...well, time heals all...

upon washing, the shadows got blacker and blacker until the olde black silver (minus what got bleached off) remained

all that happened was like the previous--the toner did a great job of overall permanently tinting everything but the silver---like the opposite of what I want--oh and the bleach did it's job too--I'm missing significant density and information now...so the bleach does work at the concentrations provided.

since it looked coated before the wash all I can figure is that the ferricyanide is no good as a mordant.

the copper toner I'm getting may prove to be not only a regular toner on it's own, but the copper may accept dyes more readily--so my copper red toner may actually work for green--we'll see....

I dipped a fuji black and white in it....looks like maybe something there???? we'll see upong drying


I'm fully convinced now that these edawal things won't work for toning the tri x reversals right out of the box.

man I shouldn't have bought that bottle of green too...bluh...well---toning polaroids will be artsy I guess..

 

[johnielvis]

UPDATE--the red edwal toner works VERY WELL--like "as advertised" and per the directions for the fuji 3000 black and white prints!

SO--what do you all think--too much silver in the tri-x reversals then--that's what I think is going on--way too dense for the dye method to work unless I make very thin images to start with---I read in the old toner info that you want a very thin film for toning to work properly, so I'm guessing that the trix is just way too thick and crunchy for the dyes to have any appreciable affect--that is, the effect is always overpowered by the huge silver content....

unless we bleach a lot away first----hmmm well--adding bleach to the process will certainly increase the effective film speed...anyways---first things first---experiment with the copper and iron toners and see what they offer...