Edge weirdness in my Pt/Pd coatings - solarization ?

[nick mulder]

Have a look here to see what I am talking about:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Sometimes I get these areas around the edges where not only the blacks will fade and get blotchy (which I dont mind so much) - but I will get areas in the highlights that will go a cold grey color, these aint so pretty - they form in areas where the coating was a little thin, due to my brush drying up along the edge or the coating rod pushing a little to far into new/dry paper and not completely coating it ...

One solution is to just get better at coating (using a full/wet brush or the edges) and getting my coating rod action down ...

buuut - I'd still like to know how a coating can at the same time lighten shadows and darken highlights (i.e. turn everything grey) and what if anything can i do about process wise that I haven't already discussed ?

(and yes the image is blotchy, I'm looking forward to trying some Pyro and HC110 with FP4+ to beef up the contrast and also trying POP Pt/Pd - ditch that #2 soln!)

really want to get the technical aspect down, as I'm thoroughly enjoying portraiture lately and want to make some good prints for the subjects

any help appreciated!
thanks,
Nick

 

[nick mulder]

actually, this is it here:

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

A lot of that grainy/blotchy tone in your highlights is from the FeOx#2 as contrasting agent. The "solarization" is from your coating being a bit thin at the edges, so it dries out faster and the thin parts start to reverse because there isn't enough solution to continue building density. What paper are you using?

 

[nick mulder]

COT320, it happens the most on this paper also - Others also, but to a lesser extent...

So aside from making sure I dont get thin areas in my coating is there anything else I can do ?

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Yes- for sure, quit using the FeOx#2. Also, humidify your paper before printing, espeically when the air is dry. Get a bath of steaming water, or a tea kettle, and suspend the paper in the vapor stream (don't drop it in, or it will get totally wet and then you'll have to wait for the paper to dry out again). When the paper feels slightly limp to the touch, then coat, and print immediately upon the coating being dry to the touch.

 

[nick mulder]

Yes- for sure, quit using the FeOx#2. Also, humidify your paper before printing, especially when the air is dry. Get a bath of steaming water, or a tea kettle, and suspend the paper in the vapor stream (don't drop it in, or it will get totally wet and then you'll have to wait for the paper to dry out again). When the paper feels slightly limp to the touch, then coat, and print immediately upon the coating being dry to the touch.

Yeh, I have been doing this as usual practice but lately the weather down this way is getting hot and sticky so I left that part out... might go back to it though and see if I notice anything.

Well, my #2 soln is running low anyway so it off to the B&S website - I'd like to try Ziatype so I need Lithium Pd (I have 25ml here) - I also have 25ml Sodium Pd and about 10ml Ammonium Pd - will these also work for POP Ziatype ? Along with the Amm ferric Oxalate I'll certainly oder the Ammonium Dichromate %5, maybe get some %20 for fun and cut it to %5 if its too harsh - I'll leave tungstate/gold for another day ...

Now - NA2 - that is a DOP right ? If I understand its the same as I am doing but it uses a platinum salt as a contrast agent ? so I still need standard soln#1 ? and then mix it with Pd (any particular Pd?) and the NA2 for contrast... what sort of drop count ratios am I looking at to replicate a 'standardized' 8/14/24 drop count (#1,#2,Pd) in the classic formulation ?

hope my questions are making sense ! I just like to order in good proportion so I'm not left with a bunch of chems on standby as a top-up order of such and such chemical is in the mail (unnecessarily)

thanks for your help,

Nick

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Yes- I use NA2 in DOP Pt/Pd. It is a contrast agent. NA2 and the other contrast agents like LiPd and Ammonium Dichromate go a very long way - When I print, to give you an example, I use 1 drop diluted 1:3 (NA2istilled water) per 5x7 print if my negs need any contrasting agent at all. That's my starting point.

Yes, you still need the Pt or Pd, and the FeOx sensitizer. No wonder you're getting blotchy grainy images - that's just WAY too much contrasting agent. You're also shorting the sensitizer. The total number of sensitizer drops should equal the number of metal salt drops. What grade silver paper do you have to print those negs on, grade 4? They're WAY too flat for good pt/pd.

The basics of pt/pd should be as follows, when printing DOP, using a contrasting agent other than FeOx#2:

for a 5x7 print, on COT320, I use 7 drops Pd (or a blend of Pt and Pd), 7 drops FeOx #1 (the sensitizer), and then add 1 drop of Na2 20% diluted 1:3. I add the Na2 on top of my sensitizer and metal salt mix.

I do not have experience with making Ziatype prints, so my recommendation would be to call or email Bostick & Sullivan, since they are the inventors of the Ziatype.

 

[photomc]

Well, my #2 soln is running low anyway so it off to the B&S website - I'd like to try Ziatype so I need Lithium Pd (I have 25ml here) - I also have 25ml Sodium Pd and about 10ml Ammonium Pd - will these also work for POP Ziatype ? Along with the Amm ferric Oxalate I'll certainly oder the Ammonium Dichromate %5, maybe get some %20 for fun and cut it to %5 if its too harsh - I'll leave tungstate/gold for another day ...

Now - NA2 - that is a DOP right ? If I understand its the same as I am doing but it uses a platinum salt as a contrast agent ? so I still need standard soln#1 ? and then mix it with Pd (any particular Pd?) and the NA2 for contrast... what sort of drop count ratios am I looking at to replicate a 'standardized' 8/14/24 drop count (#1,#2,Pd) in the classic formulation ?

hope my questions are making sense ! I just like to order in good proportion so I'm not left with a bunch of chems on standby as a top-up order of such and such chemical is in the mail (unnecessarily)

thanks for your help,

Nick

Nick, Yes you can use LiPd or CsPd for the POP process, you will need some ammonium ferric oxalate (AFO) or sodium ferric oxalate. As to the drop count, it will follow the same if DOP or POP. The BIG difference is that humidity plays an important part in POP. I would suggest taking the paper you plan to coat out of any package and let the paper 'rest' in the environment you plan to coat it in - allow it to acclimate - I do this with either process and it has served me well, but you will need to see how it works for you.

Search the thread here, somewhere I recall Kerik discussing the amount of solution required by the sq/in. In any case I use 8-10 drop count of FO and metal salts for a 5x7 and 18-20 of each for 8x10, plus a drop of Everclear and this gives me a good coating of the paper. Just keep moving the solution around left to right, top to bottom until the coating has a dull service.

I found that DOP worked better for my workflow, and I can get almost the same color changes by working with the various metal salts or by adjusting the temp of the developer. With the Zia, you need to work quickly, make certain that the paper is dry - but not to dry. If the paper becomes to dry you can expose it for a very long time and still end up with a very weak print - humidity is a key to the process. However, if the coating is damp you can find your negative damaged by the coating - it will stick to it and once there it is there, negative gone.

Look for books by Arentz or Sullivan and Weese, or Chirstopher Jame Alternative Photographic Process any of these would be helpfull.

 

[nick mulder]

for a 5x7 print, on COT320, I use 7 drops Pd (or a blend of Pt and Pd), 7 drops FeOx #1 (the sensitizer), and then add 1 drop of Na2 20% diluted 1:3. I add the Na2 on top of my sensitizer and metal salt mix.

My drop counts (slightly more Pd salt than sensitizer) was based upon the instructions that came with my first Pt/Pd kit from B&S which is always 22/24 for an 8x10... I use less for my 8x10's so the ratios are often closer to equal anyway (11/12 is a hard ratio to keep when scaling in discrete units! 1:1 much easier)...

Anyhoo - its time to order my xmas present to myself which is a bulk load of chems - I'd like to try both NA2 in DOP and Ziatype so I have the following in my shopping basket currently:


100ml LiPd #3 soln (can be used for both processes)

2g Potassium Chloroplatinite Powder (cos I feel like an extravagant bastard today ... will make 10ml #3 soln. )

100ml Ferric Oxalate #1

10ml "Na2" Standard 20% Soln using the 'metric drop' at 1/20ml and your 1:3 dilution I figure I'd get um ~600 drops right ? It's dependent on my negs and tastes in the final print contrast anyway huh, but forgetting that and all things being equal is this a good amount ? Is my logic correct ?


righto... thats the DOP process stuff

For Ziatype I'll use the LiPd from above and:


10ml 5% Gold Chloride Soln

100ml Ammonium Dichromate 5% Soln. I'm going to ask B&S if this can be made into %20 soln. instead (volume corrected)

100ml Ammonium Ferric Oxalate Ziatype Sol. No. 1



Question is >>Do these seem like appropriate amounts of the chemicals ? <<


I have ordered the right amount of sensitizers for each process for the total amount of LiPd - as in I'd need 2x more LiPd to use it all up - but I have ~60ml assorted other Pt/Pd #3 solns. here already to use also ...

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Your solution amounts for the DOP stuff sounds about right. I think the 10ml of NA2 will be fine - you'll find out from experience, of course, but a little goes a VERY long way.

 

[Kerik]

The only problem I see is buying the ferric oxalate in solution. 100 ml is quite a bit and it might go south on you before you've used it up. All depends how large and how often you print. Figure roughly 3 months as shelf life for ferric oxalate.

 

[nick mulder]

The only problem I see is buying the ferric oxalate in solution. 100 ml is quite a bit and it might go south on you before you've used it up. All depends how large and how often you print. Figure roughly 3 months as shelf life for ferric oxalate.

ah yes... I was copying and pasting from the website - they have the option of ordering dry packs which I intend to do ...

righto, well - I'll order it then - choice!

thanks for all the help here - certainly would be interesting to get everyone together in a room to nut out all the complexities, secrets and wotnot. Aside from some Maplethorpe prints I found in Melbourne a few months back the only Pt/Pd prints I've seen are my own - the Maplethorpe ones seemed to be from a blown up smaller format, possibly 6x6 - and were printed by someone else...

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

I don't know that Mapplethorpe ever did Pt/Pd. He was definitely a small-format shooter- mostly 6x6cm. If there are pt/pd Mapplethorpe prints, they are definitely from enlarged negatives.

 

[nick mulder]

I did some research after seeing them - cant remember the exact pages I found but there was reference that he wasn't the printer - they were square format hence the guess at 6x6 ... From memory in the range of 20"x20" - content aside it was clear that there is a big difference between a true direct in-camera neg contact and a blow up via interpositive.

 

[rbergeman]

regarding the na2 drop ratio -- i see arentz' book recommends cutting the 20% stock solution to a range of more dilute bottles and then eeking out the drops in 2.5%, 5% and 10% amounts, as you climb up the contrast scale ..... however, i just read here that our experienced friend from d.c. is using the 20% stock diluted 1:3 (what's that, about 2.5%??) and adding one drop per contrast grade --at least, that's how i interpreted it-- and that sounds like an elegantly simple approach ..... i'm about to experiment with na2 myself in the next week or so (after more than a decade using the traditional a/b method), and wanted to ask if there's a threshhold for how many drops of na2 to add (for instance, if printing an underexposed neg and 1 or 2 or 3 drops aren't sufficient, can you simply go on to 4 or 5 drops added in on top of the sensitizer/pd solution?) ..... and another question -- how does the effect of na2 differ when printing with straight pd vs. a pd/pt combination? i hear pt is not necessary to get deep, cool blacks if you're using na2 -- what advantage is there to adding pt?

 

[N O Mennescio]

Some friends and I did some pt/pd printing this weekend and a strange thing happend. We tried double coating and guess what. We could not get black, only dark gray!? But around the edges where you could see the bottom layer its was black. Does any one know why? The first layer was completly dry before coating again. Paper used was Cot 320 and Arches Platinotype.
By the way. Na2 in combination with Pt may cause fogging on some papers. Arches Platinotype is one of them.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

regarding the na2 drop ratio -- i see arentz' book recommends cutting the 20% stock solution to a range of more dilute bottles and then eeking out the drops in 2.5%, 5% and 10% amounts, as you climb up the contrast scale ..... however, i just read here that our experienced friend from d.c. is using the 20% stock diluted 1:3 (what's that, about 2.5%??) and adding one drop per contrast grade --at least, that's how i interpreted it-- and that sounds like an elegantly simple approach ..... i'm about to experiment with na2 myself in the next week or so (after more than a decade using the traditional a/b method), and wanted to ask if there's a threshhold for how many drops of na2 to add (for instance, if printing an underexposed neg and 1 or 2 or 3 drops aren't sufficient, can you simply go on to 4 or 5 drops added in on top of the sensitizer/pd solution?) ..... and another question -- how does the effect of na2 differ when printing with straight pd vs. a pd/pt combination? i hear pt is not necessary to get deep, cool blacks if you're using na2 -- what advantage is there to adding pt?

Using NA2 with Pd will give you a cooler, blacker image than straight Pd, but you will still get a warmer image than with Pt in the mix. NA2 is definitely a contrasting agent - it boosts contrast with Pt or Pd. If you're doing pure Pt, might be better to use dichromate instead, if you need contrasting agent. Develop all your negs to print well in Pd, and you'll have little need for any contrasting agent at all.

 

[nick mulder]

Some friends and I did some pt/pd printing this weekend and a strange thing happend. We tried double coating and guess what. We could not get black, only dark gray!? But around the edges where you could see the bottom layer its was black.

I've noticed this also, I just never double coated again but would be interested in finding out what is happening...

Another thing I'd love to learn about is the actual physical action that is at work with the 'humidity axis' of the multidimensional graph that is Pt/Pd printing -

 

[Kerik]

Mapplethorpe's pt/pd prints were made by Martin Axon. Some of them were pt/pd on linen (or silk? I've forgotten...) and were just amazing. I saw them many years ago in Mapplethorpe restropective that travelled around. Martin was also responsible for bringing Arches Platine into existence.