ECN2 processing akward result

angah316 · Oct 18, 2023

Hello

Im back here with my latest problem. I just developed a film with ECN2 processing using chemical brand CHAMPION. This chemical
I used also for c41 processing on noristsu machine v50. So far for c41 no problem on output. Means everthing perfect . Same goes on ecn no problem at all.

However today , i developed 5207/250D motion film through ECN processing . From the sacnner its look akward !

brbo · Oct 18, 2023

Looks like remaining remjet on the film is not playing well with ICE of the scanner.

Make sure that all of the remjet is removed or temporarily disable ICE in the scanner. I've scanned ECN-2 processed Vision3 films on Noritsu LS-600 and there were no such problems.

Anon Ymous · Oct 18, 2023

brbo said:
Looks like remaining remjet on the film is not playing well with ICE of the scanner.

It seems that whatever has remained on the film is where the densest highlights are. I doubt it's remjet, perhaps incomplete bleaching?

lamerko · Oct 18, 2023

RemJet leaves thick and rough marks. In the example shown, the problem areas are accentuated in the contours of the image... Whether it's silver retention or the scanner can't handle these films I don't know, but it might be a good idea to shoot the negative on the light pad.

brbo · Oct 18, 2023

Good point about problem areas being contained to highlights, so yes, I agree that retained silver is more likely the cause.

koraks · Oct 18, 2023

lamerko said:
might be a good idea to shoot the negative on the light pad.

Yes, I second that question. Please post some (good) photos of the actual film strip. One photo of a strip against an even backlight, and one photo of the strip held at an oblique angle to the light, clearly showing the emulsion side. Retained silver (at least if there's lots of it) tends to show up in the second shot, mostly.

It won't hurt to manually re-bleach and re-fix the roll to see if this makes a difference. Using (fresh) C41 bleach and fixer at room temperature in a tray, bleach and fix the film for 10-15 minutes each. This should remove any remaining silver. If this clears up the problem, there's an issue with the Noritsu and/or the chemicals in it.

angah316 · Oct 19, 2023

herewith i attached the negative for your kind reference and comment ..

Your feedback on this matter really appreciated

Anon Ymous · Oct 19, 2023

Looks like retained silver to me. Rebleach and refix.

koraks · Oct 19, 2023

Excellent photos, @angah316 , thank you very much!
Yes, I agree with @Anon Ymous that these show a massive amount of retained silver. I also think they are significantly overdeveloped, but see how these negatives come out after a round of bleach and fix.

angah316 · Oct 19, 2023

koraks said:
Excellent photos, @angah316 , thank you very much!
Yes, I agree with @Anon Ymous that these show a massive amount of retained silver. I also think they are significantly overdeveloped, but see how these negatives come out after a round of bleach and fix.

Ok i try to rebleach and refix ..

koraks · Oct 19, 2023

Sounds good; please post back on how it comes out.

This also raises some questions about the chemistry and processing of this film. There's evidently something badly out of order.

angah316 · Oct 19, 2023

Guys .. tq very much ..

Its works and the pic perfectly developed .. colors n tone just nice .

Thanks guys for kind help ..

Just wondering, once we developed , didnt know we can redevelop to get the output . I thought once we finish the fixer process everything done. Cannot repair or fix it ..

Thanks again

koraks · Oct 19, 2023

Ok, great to hear you've managed to salvage the images.

To be honest, the base color still looks very far off to ECN2 film I develop in ECN2 developer. Gamma/contrast of the negatives also seems to be very, very high. And there's the puzzling question why the film didn't bleach properly in the first place.

I think some root cause analysis is in order to prevent more problems in the future.

angah316 · Oct 19, 2023

koraks said:
Ok, great to hear you've managed to salvage the images.

To be honest, the base color still looks very far off to ECN2 film I develop in ECN2 developer. Gamma/contrast of the negatives also seems to be very, very high. And there's the puzzling question why the film didn't bleach properly in the first place.

I think some root cause analysis is in order to prevent more problems in the future.

I believe its mistake on bleaching process , either the temprature or timing not enough ..

My experience before , temprature too hot, it turn greeny on shadow area ..

As i mention before, i used c41 chemical not the specific ECN2 chemical ..

koraks · Oct 19, 2023

angah316 said:
As i mention before, i used c41 chemical not the specific ECN2 chemical ..

Ok, I misunderstood your first post where you spoke about 'ECN2 processing', which I interpreted as 'using ECN2 chemistry'. My bad. ECN2 film in C41 developer does funny things, so that will explain to a large extent the odd base color and high gamma. Too high temperature will shift things further into the same direction. Fortunately, scanning and digital correction tends to fix things regardless, so all is well.

lamerko · Oct 19, 2023

Just out of interest - what type of bleach did you use and for how long?

angah316 · Oct 19, 2023

lamerko said:
Just out of interest - what type of bleach did you use and for how long?

Im using Champion brand .. temp :34.4c and 1minute

koraks · Oct 19, 2023

angah316 said:
34.4c and 1minute

OK, keep in mind that the Champion Mydoneg bleach is designed for rapid access at 38C, not lower temperatures. Moreover, it's designed for C41 films and if you're edging along the bottom of the process window, I think you're running real risks especially if you're going to process other types of film.

I'd suggest increasing the bleach temperature to 38C as per minilab standards, at the very least, and perhaps not rely in the first place on rapid access to work as advertised on ECN2 film (which it may, or may not).

angah316 · Oct 19, 2023

angah316 said:
Im using Champion brand .. temp :34.4c and 1minute

Sorry mate , typo .. its 38.4c ..

angah316 · Oct 19, 2023

koraks said:
OK, keep in mind that the Champion Mydoneg bleach is designed for rapid access at 38C, not lower temperatures. Moreover, it's designed for C41 films and if you're edging along the bottom of the process window, I think you're running real risks especially if you're going to process other types of film.

I'd suggest increasing the bleach temperature to 38C as per minilab standards, at the very least, and perhaps not rely in the first place on rapid access to work as advertised on ECN2 film (which it may, or may not).

Sory my mistake , typo error

Its 38.4c for bleach n 1 minute ..

koraks · Oct 19, 2023

Well, maybe there was a problem with dilution or replenishment of your bleach, or maybe there's something to the film you processed that doesn't make it bleach as quickly as c41 does under the same circumstances.

angah316 · Oct 20, 2023

i got another question,

Is it bleach n fixer its a same type chemical for all kind of processing ?

Which means a same bleach n fixer its a same type chemical to develop C41 & ECN2

koraks · Oct 20, 2023

There are separate bleaches and fixers for C41 and ECN2, but in my experience, C41 bleach anf C41 fixer will work fine for ECN2 film. However, I never rely on the rapid access process parameters and bleach and fix for 3m15s at 38C in Fuji CN16-2R bleach and EnviroNeg fixer.

lamerko · Oct 20, 2023

Interestingly - it has always been claimed that ferricyanide bleach is very strong - stronger than PDTA and EDTA based and therefore would damage dye stabilizers. How then is this (probably PDTA) bleach given a shorter full processing time of 50 seconds? This is shorter than the 60 seconds of the ferricyanide bleach for ECN-2...

koraks · Oct 20, 2023

lamerko said:
How then is this (probably PDTA) bleach given a shorter full processing time of 50 seconds? This is shorter than the 60 seconds of the ferricyanide bleach for ECN-2...

Some of it undoubtedly has to do with the process margins. You could try bleaching a fully developed leader of ECN2 film in ferricyanide in daylight and see how much time it takes. I wouldn't be surprised if it's really, really fast.

ECN2 processing akward result

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