ECN-2 Kit Color Developer part A unusual color

[gnkrsv]

Hello


Maybe you could help me - I recently bought ECN-2 Color Developer part A (fresh, not expired), and it arrived yesterday, but what puzzled me - the solution inside the pail is unusually orangy coloured, instead of colourless, as it was always before...


what could possibly be wrong with it? (hasn't tested it yet)

pail and lid are not damaged in any way, and there’s no percipation on the bottom

 

[lamerko]

I have not bought such sets - I mix them myself according to the official instructions. Even after two months, the working solution has no such color. However, what you have bought is a replenisher. It has a slightly different composition and should not be used as a working solution.

 

[czygeorge]

Hi gn
There's one thing you should know is that ECN-2's Dev's factors are so easy and hard to went wrong
You can mix it(with starter and diluted water) to working solution and check if its PH is around 10.25±0.05

 

[lamerko]

Interesting. I have now checked the composition of part A and part B.

Part A:
AF-2000
Sodium (Bi)carbonate
Sodium bromide

Part B:
Sodium sulphite
CD-3

There is probably an equal amount of Anti-Calcium 4 in both parts. I really have no idea where that color could come from - part A must have a pretty long shelf life.

 

[czygeorge]

Interesting. I have now checked the composition of part A and part B.

Part A:
AF-2000
Sodium (Bi)carbonate
Sodium bromide

Part B:
Sodium sulphite
CD-3

There is probably an equal amount of Anti-Calcium 4 in both parts. I really have no idea where that color could come from - part A must have a pretty long shelf life.

Yes, the developer of ecn-2 is so simple that it seems like heaven to the configurator

 

[fert]

Yes, the developer of ecn-2 is so simple that it seems like heaven to the configurator

Dear master, can you tell me the formula of ECN2 concentrate? It is quite troublesome to configure the working fluid from scratch every time.

 

[koraks]

can you tell me the formula of ECN2 concentrate?

Try here, and then down to the section where I discuss ECN-2 developer: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photograph...lor-developer-formulas-including-c41-and-ra4/
I offer a set of formulas of concentrated stock solutions that you can mix with water and then add dry CD3 to.

You may be able to work out a way to make a concentrated solution of CD3 that keeps well. I've never really looked deeply into it.

It's also possible to make the concentrates in slightly different ways, but I opted for an in my opinion easy 1+2+7 ratio (not counting the CD3).

 

[czygeorge]

Dear master, can you tell me the formula of ECN2 concentrate? It is quite troublesome to configure the working fluid from scratch every time.

Yes you can just read koraks article which is where i were inspired too(and i'm not good to be master lol)

What I do is put the rest in solution A, and CD3 and sodium sulfite in solution b. Kodak does the same thing (kodak has a starter solution to balance the bromide and others when configuring the replenishing solution to the working solution,we don't need this)

Because it needs to be stored for a long time, I recommend keeping the No. 4 anti-calcium agent for solution A (Atmp-5Na around 40%, the reason has been stated by the seniors in the forum).
I am used to 1:5 for s a and 1:20 for s b. Liquid b can be concentrated a lot, but you have to take into account the error when configuring the working solution.

Of course, it is best to just pour the powder in and shake it well before use like Korak says. CD3 is really easy to oxidize.

It is recommended to use a laboratory electronic balance (calibrated with weights) and volumetric flasks to configure the concentrated solution

 

[Rudeofus]

If I look at typical concentrate formulas for color developers, I see the following pattern:

1. One concentrate contains Sodium or Potassium Metabisulfite and the color developer (CD-3 or CD-4). We use metabisulfite, not sulfite, in order to make the concentrate slightly acidic.
2. One concentrate contains HAS. This is optional, since ECN-2 and E-6 CD do not contain HAS.
3. One concentrate contains everything else: alkali, restrainers, sequestering agents, most of the sulfite

If you want to make the concentrate part with the color developer, you may have to split the sulfite part, a bit like it's done when mixing a developer with Metol and Sulfite: you first dissolve a little sulfite (or in case of color developer concentrates: metabisulfite), then you dissolve the color development agent, then you add some more sulfite or metabisulfite.

Since CD-3 and CD-4 are very soluble, you can reach very high concentrations, therefore expect that only little metabisulfite will dissolve in this concentrate. The color developer concentrate in Kodak's E-6 kit may give some practical numbers for CD-3. I have no numbers for CD-4 handy, but e.g. Tetenal's kits used 100ml liquid to provide the CD-4 for 1 liter of working solution. You can probably start with 50ml and add more water, if the CD-4 does not dissolve.

 

[koraks]

Tetenal's kits used 100ml liquid to provide the CD-4 for 1 liter of working solution

Given that a working C41 developer generally contains 4.5 to 5g per liter of CD4, it follows that the Tetenal concentrate is not all that concentrated. It's easy to go much higher, but at the cost of possible measurement inaccuracies when mixing the working strength liquid.
Btw, the Fuji minilab developer concentrate for CN16 (C41) is more concentrated. I could check the kit I have in store.
The trick to a developer concentrate is to make it last. I've never done any serious work on this, but I did notice in some small tests how quickly a concentrated, watery solution of CD4 goes off.

 

[Rudeofus]

Given that a working C41 developer generally contains 4.5 to 5g per liter of CD4, it follows that the Tetenal concentrate is not all that concentrated. It's easy to go much higher, but at the cost of possible measurement inaccuracies when mixing the working strength liquid.
Btw, the Fuji minilab developer concentrate for CN16 (C41) is more concentrated. I could check the kit I have in store.
The trick to a developer concentrate is to make it last. I've never done any serious work on this, but I did notice in some small tests how quickly a concentrated, watery solution of CD4 goes off.

Kodak puts the whole amount (>8 g) of CD-3 for its E-6 color developer into 47ml of liquid, and I am sure, that they have received their share of cuss words for using such an odd measure. If I talk to sales people for amateur analog photo stuff, they don't complain about the shelf life of Tetenal's products, but instead "it's so damn complicated to mix a working solution from three concentrate bottles!!!".

But yes, 4-5g of CD-4 in 20-30 ml could work ...

 

[lamerko]

Based on US5948604A (E-6), we have a definition of concentrate:

which can easily be converted to ECN-2. Accordingly, the concentration will be about 25 ml/liter. Of course there is no metabisulfite in ECN-2, but I believe that those more familiar with chemistry here would calculate exactly what compensation should be made from the two grams of sulfite...

 

[liuzhenyu]

Interesting. I have now checked the composition of part A and part B.

Part A:
AF-2000
Sodium (Bi)carbonate
Sodium bromide

Part B:
Sodium sulphite
CD-3

There is probably an equal amount of Anti-Calcium 4 in both parts. I really have no idea where that color could come from - part A must have a pretty long shelf life.

thank you for showing the composition of part A and part B, can you tell us the source of these formulas? are there any official documents? looking forward to your reply, thanks again!

 

[lamerko]

Hello,
yes, the formulas are officially published by Kodak (I am attaching the document). You can see the formulas on page 7-27.

Regarding the commercial Kodak packs - I looked at the MSDS info. They do not publish all components, but only the most dangerous. There are also no exact amounts there. But once we know the formula, it's easy to work out what and how much is in the two packages.

 

[liuzhenyu]

Hello,
yes, the formulas are officially published by Kodak (I am attaching the document). You can see the formulas on page 7-27.

Regarding the commercial Kodak packs - I looked at the MSDS info. They do not publish all components, but only the most dangerous. There are also no exact amounts there. But once we know the formula, it's easy to work out what and how much is in the two packages.

Hello,
Thank you very much for your reply! I recently want to try to develop my cinefilms by myself. I have found some information including the Module 7 of Kodak (thanks again for sharing this document here). I want to configure some developer concentrate stock for a long time storage, but I can not find the formula of the concentrate part A or B. Your reply helped me a lot, and I just found some other information which a little different from you (https://tinker.koraks.nl/photograph...lor-developer-formulas-including-c41-and-ra4/). I found one book which indicates the C41 developer part B is Potassium metabisulfite and CD4.

 

[lamerko]

Yes, the C-41 process uses a CD4 developing agent and a different set of chemistry. But this thread (and Kodak Module 7) is about a different process - ECN-2. Although you can process C-41 in ECN-2 chemistry and vice versa, in general it can lead to quite a few problems. In the Koraks god link you quoted, you can see that in addition to C-41, there is a section for ECN-2. He has slightly modified the formula, but his modifications do not change the final result. It just keeps things simple, but with the caveat that the working solution will be disposable. This avoids some chemicals that are very difficult to access or absurdly expensive, but at the same time are auxiliary and do not participate in the formation of the image.
Formulas are given for direct dilution, not for creating concentrates. Commercial packaging may include additional chemicals to provide the most stable and long-lasting solutions possible.
If I had to phrase Part A it would be:

Anti-Calcium #4 - 20.0 ml
Sodium Bromide - 12.0 g
Sodium Carbonate - 256.0 g
Sodium Bicarbonate - 27.0 g
AF-2000 - 50.0 ml
Water up to 2 liters

Part B would be:
Sodium Sulfite - 20.0 g
CD-3 - 40.0 g
Water up to 500 ml

This concentrate is for 10 liters of working solution. Mixing
4:1:15 (four parts of A, one part of B and fifteen parts of water).

Or for 500 ml working solution:
100 ml of A
25 ml B
375 ml of water

for one liter:
200 ml of A
50 ml B
750 ml of water

IMPORTANT!!!

Part B will be wrong!!! The CD3 developing agent is the critical part - while part A of the concentrate will have a long life, part B will have a very short life. The small amount of sodium sulfite cannot protect against CD3 for a long time. One way to extend life is to make a highly acidic concentrate. CD3 itself is acidic, but sodium sulfite is alkaline. There is sodium metabisulfite in the C-41 and E-6 chemistry kits which would provide some temporary solution. With ECN-2, there is no metabisulfite in the official formula, so if it is added, a lot of changes in the composition must be made. As far as I know, some commercial putties do, as well as Kodak's commercial chemistry itself.
Because things get complicated and with an increased chance of something going wrong, it's better to make only concentrate A, to which the sodium sulfite from B is added, and to remove the extra ingredients if they are hard to find or expensive. And these are AF-2000 and possibly Anti-Calcium #4. If Anti-Calcium #4 is omitted, you will need to adjust the pH of the solution. The critical component CD3 remains - you add it immediately before use in the working solution (2 g for 500 ml, 4 g for 1 liter). You adjust the pH after dissolving the CD3 because it is quite acidic.

 

[LomoSnap]

I think this is from recipe differences between different manufacturers, may be is normal.
The ECN2 Dev I purchased before was from China Sinopromise. It is a colorless and transparent liquid. Now it is bankrupt.
I see yours is produced in Germany,it has different CAT number.

 

[liuzhenyu]

Yes, the C-41 process uses a CD4 developing agent and a different set of chemistry. But this thread (and Kodak Module 7) is about a different process - ECN-2. Although you can process C-41 in ECN-2 chemistry and vice versa, in general it can lead to quite a few problems. In the Koraks god link you quoted, you can see that in addition to C-41, there is a section for ECN-2. He has slightly modified the formula, but his modifications do not change the final result. It just keeps things simple, but with the caveat that the working solution will be disposable. This avoids some chemicals that are very difficult to access or absurdly expensive, but at the same time are auxiliary and do not participate in the formation of the image.
Formulas are given for direct dilution, not for creating concentrates. Commercial packaging may include additional chemicals to provide the most stable and long-lasting solutions possible.
If I had to phrase Part A it would be:

Anti-Calcium #4 - 20.0 ml
Sodium Bromide - 12.0 g
Sodium Carbonate - 256.0 g
Sodium Bicarbonate - 27.0 g
AF-2000 - 50.0 ml
Water up to 2 liters

Part B would be:
Sodium Sulfite - 20.0 g
CD-3 - 40.0 g
Water up to 500 ml

This concentrate is for 10 liters of working solution. Mixing
4:1:15 (four parts of A, one part of B and fifteen parts of water).

Or for 500 ml working solution:
100 ml of A
25 ml B
375 ml of water

for one liter:
200 ml of A
50 ml B
750 ml of water

IMPORTANT!!!

Part B will be wrong!!! The CD3 developing agent is the critical part - while part A of the concentrate will have a long life, part B will have a very short life. The small amount of sodium sulfite cannot protect against CD3 for a long time. One way to extend life is to make a highly acidic concentrate. CD3 itself is acidic, but sodium sulfite is alkaline. There is sodium metabisulfite in the C-41 and E-6 chemistry kits which would provide some temporary solution. With ECN-2, there is no metabisulfite in the official formula, so if it is added, a lot of changes in the composition must be made. As far as I know, some commercial putties do, as well as Kodak's commercial chemistry itself.
Because things get complicated and with an increased chance of something going wrong, it's better to make only concentrate A, to which the sodium sulfite from B is added, and to remove the extra ingredients if they are hard to find or expensive. And these are AF-2000 and possibly Anti-Calcium #4. If Anti-Calcium #4 is omitted, you will need to adjust the pH of the solution. The critical component CD3 remains - you add it immediately before use in the working solution (2 g for 500 ml, 4 g for 1 liter). You adjust the pH after dissolving the CD3 because it is quite acidic.

thank you for your reply. I found some information that suggests adding CD3 as a powder when you configure the working solution, this might be a good strategy to prevent the denaturation of CD3. And I going to try this strategy to extend the shelf life of CD3.

 

[czygeorge]

I think this is from recipe differences between different manufacturers, may be is normal.
The ECN2 Dev I purchased before was from China Sinopromise. It is a colorless and transparent liquid. Now it is bankrupt.
I see yours is produced in Germany,it has different CAT number.

lomo哥你这一说我感觉可能真是德国人搞错了hhh
话说是瓶子上写的替代芳香酸盐，估计就是af 2000

 

[czygeorge]

Yes, the C-41 process uses a CD4 developing agent and a different set of chemistry. But this thread (and Kodak Module 7) is about a different process - ECN-2. Although you can process C-41 in ECN-2 chemistry and vice versa, in general it can lead to quite a few problems. In the Koraks god link you quoted, you can see that in addition to C-41, there is a section for ECN-2. He has slightly modified the formula, but his modifications do not change the final result. It just keeps things simple, but with the caveat that the working solution will be disposable. This avoids some chemicals that are very difficult to access or absurdly expensive, but at the same time are auxiliary and do not participate in the formation of the image.
Formulas are given for direct dilution, not for creating concentrates. Commercial packaging may include additional chemicals to provide the most stable and long-lasting solutions possible.
If I had to phrase Part A it would be:

Anti-Calcium #4 - 20.0 ml
Sodium Bromide - 12.0 g
Sodium Carbonate - 256.0 g
Sodium Bicarbonate - 27.0 g
AF-2000 - 50.0 ml
Water up to 2 liters

Part B would be:
Sodium Sulfite - 20.0 g
CD-3 - 40.0 g
Water up to 500 ml

This concentrate is for 10 liters of working solution. Mixing
4:1:15 (four parts of A, one part of B and fifteen parts of water).

Or for 500 ml working solution:
100 ml of A
25 ml B
375 ml of water

for one liter:
200 ml of A
50 ml B
750 ml of water

IMPORTANT!!!

Part B will be wrong!!! The CD3 developing agent is the critical part - while part A of the concentrate will have a long life, part B will have a very short life. The small amount of sodium sulfite cannot protect against CD3 for a long time. One way to extend life is to make a highly acidic concentrate. CD3 itself is acidic, but sodium sulfite is alkaline. There is sodium metabisulfite in the C-41 and E-6 chemistry kits which would provide some temporary solution. With ECN-2, there is no metabisulfite in the official formula, so if it is added, a lot of changes in the composition must be made. As far as I know, some commercial putties do, as well as Kodak's commercial chemistry itself.
Because things get complicated and with an increased chance of something going wrong, it's better to make only concentrate A, to which the sodium sulfite from B is added, and to remove the extra ingredients if they are hard to find or expensive. And these are AF-2000 and possibly Anti-Calcium #4. If Anti-Calcium #4 is omitted, you will need to adjust the pH of the solution. The critical component CD3 remains - you add it immediately before use in the working solution (2 g for 500 ml, 4 g for 1 liter). You adjust the pH after dissolving the CD3 because it is quite acidic.

I think in fact, the anti-oxidation of CD 3 mainly depends on high concentration.
As long as your bottle storage container can completely isolate oxygen(has an aluminum foil seal etc.), there will be no problem.
Kodak's analysis specifications for sodium sulfite and CD3 are designed to take oxidation losses into account, and the sulfite in the color developer also plays an important role as a color competing agent

I suspect that Kodak has designed many developers with a little oxidation in mind
The first developer of E-6 is red when freshly released. Only after a period of slight oxidation after opening the bottle will it turn into the yellow color what it looks like when Kodak sold it