Easy way to perforate 35mm

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rmazzullo

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I have been investigating using a mechanism similar to a Mitchell BNC motion camera movement to provide perforating as a last step if one were to consider making roll film for 35mm use. The Mitchell BNC camera movement is (was) a very tough, well built design using reciprocating locating and registration pins, and a "D" shaped motion for advancing the film in the camera. You may have trouble finding original parts to pattern after, but you really don't need them. The concepts behind the design are what you are after.

To avoid errors in spacing the perforations the reciprocating speed of the punches is timed (gear train / sprockets) to the speed of the film strip. The perforator has very sharp tool steel (or stainless steel) punches with the cutting edge beveled at a bit more of an angle than done in normal practice and a longer travel. This is done to clear the punched waste completely and cleanly from the film path after the strike. Less force is required at the punch end if the cutting edge is beveled at an angle instead of flush - look at a three hole punch, or the end of a hypodermic needle for example (but not with as severe an angle). The side clearance between the punch and the die it fits into have to be specific to the substrate you are punching, so different punch / die combinations are required (acetate vs polyester, thickness, shear strength of each, etc). This takes into account the momentary distortion of the material that takes place during punching. Lavezzi sprockets can be used to provide a type of feedback to the drive controlling the punches. A similar kind of perforator might be made using the guts of an industrial sewing machine, but that's still at the "back of the napkin" stage. All of the parts are there, aside from timing, specific punches, support, etc. Aside from the sewing machine idea, other parts would need to be added, particularly for the film path (stability and steadiness) and in the punch (stripper plate, etc). All parts would have to be lapped to as smooth a surface as possible (almost to the point of looking like they were chrome plated) to avoid scratching. There are other considerations, but that is the gist of it. Things like reducing vibration during film travel are still being worked out. The perforator would have to be physically isolated from the drive motor(s) and gear train / guide sprockets to avoid shaking the film as it passes. This means using much thicker and heavier metal in the support / film path areas to soak up the vibrations created, as well as creating a 'guide channel' for the film strip itself.

Just one possible way of doing things...

Bob M.
 
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Ross DiJulio

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Bumping this thread, has anyone tried to make a mechanism similar to what Bob discusses above or OP mentioned briefly at the start of the thread? Side clearance of punch and die is difficult, not only because the margin is so small, but you need the punch to travel longer and risk running into the die edges as it rotates.
 

Michael Guzzi

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I quite like Ferrania's perforator, and from what I understand from Bob M.'s description (I'm not familiar with any movie camera mechanisms) is quite the same.

Dead Link Removed

Looks fairly simple, but the devil's in the details, as they say. Look for example, at the cork rollers, to avoid static build-up. I'd like to see the film advance mechanism which is hidden from sight, bet it's coupled to the reciprocating wheel.

Or, a simpler DIY approach would be to make something like what holmburgers suggests on post #11:

WW2 Perforator.jpg


Still, it would need some machine tools and expertise to make one. I see what you mean with the die clearances, but a sufficiently big diameter would eliminate this. How big depend on the cutting clearance needed for the specific material and the thickness of it.
 

Ross DiJulio

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Michael,

Thanks for the tips. I am actually replicating the old WWII perpetrator, I can fab some of the frame and such but the cutting and die wheels I'll need to ship off to a more established machine shop to hold the tighter tolerances. Lots of small details to be accounted for.
 

AgX

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Or, a simpler DIY approach would be to make something like what holmburgers suggests on post #11:

There sure are some DIY workshops that could manufacture the male part, be it with sharp edges of the studs, but the female part already would be beyond their capacity.

Thus I would use a different approach.
 

dwross

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AgX

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But type 120 film will still be held on its guides.
Your self cut strips likely will just fall between the two inner rails.

Though your experimernts seemingly showed that it worked nevertheless...
 

dwross

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Nope. Works just the same. The 120 film is taped to the leader end of the backing paper. The 35mm film is taped to the leader end of sprocketed film. Both formats are pulled through by their backing. It's beyond "experiments" for me:happy:. I've made hundreds of 35mm exposures.
 

AgX

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But at least in theory your "35mm" not will not be in the focal plane. The backing film will be.
 

dwross

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Regardless, discounting brain-dead days, my exposures are all in perfect focus, within the relevant depth-of-field.
 

Photo Engineer

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The "35mm" film will be in the focal plane which is closest to the shutter. This does work. It and the 120 re-use of paper work just fine until the film or paper wears out due to continued use.

Fine idea, but in the long run we need good slitters and perfers. Right now, GEM can get large rolls of film slit to their custom width for their coating machine and they make fine 35mm film.

PE
 

AgX

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35mm film rests on the inner guides of the film chamber. (Strictly speakin it is actually cought in a channel formed by these rails and the pressure plate.)
If one cuts the film as narrow as to pass the sprockets the film will hardly reach onto these rails.

The height of these inner rails to the shutter casing varies beetween cameras.
It can be as low as 1/3mm, but also quite more.
 

Michael Guzzi

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There sure are some DIY workshops that could manufacture the male part, be it with sharp edges of the studs, but the female part already would be beyond their capacity.

Thus I would use a different approach.

If making each part as one solid component, yes. But that need not be the case.
 

fdonadio

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Or, a simpler DIY approach would be to make something like what holmburgers suggests on post #11:

There sure are some DIY workshops that could manufacture the male part, be it with sharp edges of the studs, but the female part already would be beyond their capacity.

Thus I would use a different approach.

Michael is a machinist...
 

Fred V

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But at least in theory your "35mm" not will not be in the focal plane. The backing film will be.
35mm film rests on the inner guides of the film chamber. (Strictly speakin it is actually cought in a channel formed by these rails and the pressure plate.)
If one cuts the film as narrow as to pass the sprockets the film will hardly reach onto these rails.
Two narrow strips of film can be place in the position of rail guide to provide film thickness correction for focus distance, with ends of strips adhered to the cassette and/or concave under sprocket gear. I should try this with my 16mm film in 35mm camera, but the film got anti-halation stained emulsion by moisture.
Maybe I could save it for developer test strip...:wondering:
 

Fred V

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dwross, I read your wonderful page, that have lot of details in there, and learn some tricks. The process is really fine operational, thx for sharing.
And just curious, I see you didn't fix the end side of strip near the spool with a piece tape or something . Did you ever have a issue when rewind film back into canister after shooting?
 

dwross

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Hi! Fred. Thanks!
Excellent question. I'll be sure to clarify that point on TLF. I don't try to rewind the film back into the canister. When it reaches the end of the roll, that's it until I can reload in the darkroom. It works just like 120 film. The backing and the film are attached at the front of the roll, but as the roll advances, the film has to be able to "float" relative to the backing. Also, the surface of the emulsion is not as scratch-resistant as commercial film (no hard supercoat). I make sure the velvet on the film canister is very clean, but two passes through is probably asking for trouble.
 

Fred V

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dwross, I get the point. The idea of "float" is great, as I also worry about length miss matched between back and strip , tight and loose. And I used to make 16mm film scratched in 35 camera , now it's time to check velvet seals.:laugh:
Thanks for your kind reply!
 
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