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Dali

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Blansky, photography became the "people's art" because it filled a gap and was easy, easier than any media before. If it were to represent your family, painting was there. Why it never became as popular as photography? Because it requires a much higher skill to get something meaningful. As the OP stated, everyone can get a few nice shots without much artistic or technical knowledge. I am not sure it is true for painting (or sculpture or music).

For the arty part, the approach is totally different as the medium is irrelevant. Is considered as arty what the art market considers as such, i.e. what is bankable.
 

blansky

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For the arty part, the approach is totally different as the medium is irrelevant. Is considered as arty what the art market considers as such, i.e. what is bankable.

But the "art market" is a pretty small area of "serious" photographers, and maybe your area, I don't know, since we sometimes get tunnel vision about our genre and forget about the other disciplines. But I would consider the fact that there are very serious photographers in a lot of areas of photography that have nothing to do with galleries.

My point on this and the other thread about camera phones, is simply that there are two main motives for taking pictures, snapshots/records or family etc and the serious photographers various disciplines which are far more deliberate, and often follow in the rules/conventions of previous artistic disciplines like paintings.

Obviously there is crossover, and blending but I think the distinctions are important.

Perhaps like a race car driver and a commuter. Both are drivers but the race car driver can be a commuter but the commuter is rarely a race car driver with the obvious disciplines involved. Two different mindsets and motives. ( I know, someone is going to say that a commuter has a more dangerous time, but that could be because he's busy testing all the time).
 
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Dali

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Who are those you call "serious photographers"?
 

Dali

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OK, the category #2 of users in my answer to Mustafa... That being said, I am not sure it has something to do with the OP comment...
 

David Brown

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... I was standing next to one of my own prints hanging in an all medium public non juried art show. My print was of a still life with wire arrangement, shot on 8x10 and printed in platinum. A woman walked up and looked at it because it had won a blue ribbon and not knowing I was the photographer she commented to me with a scoff, "but that is something anyone could have done" ...

My answer would have been: "Yes. but they didn't!"
 

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blansky,

i couldn't agree more there are people who like to take photographs and there are "photographers"
as dennis agreed with " anyone cold have done it" but as david said " they didn't "

a "photographer" is what they used to call a "trail blazer" or a "bushwhacker" ...
these days they break new ground, then they sit back an others do the same and post their images on flickr...( or FB )

then programmers figure out how to make something look l ike that, and make the plug in to mimic it.

as long as you can read the swedish or danish instructions you too can make a faux gum over plainotype
 

ic-racer

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Crop it, frame it, don't tell them a monkey took it, and someone could sell it as "art".

If the monkey can do that great, he made art. I suspect not. If someone wants to present the monkey's picture as art, it is that person's art, not the monkey's or traffic camera's or googlemap cam's art.
 

blansky

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blansky,

i couldn't agree more there are people who like to take photographs and there are "photographers"
as dennis agreed with " anyone cold have done it" but as david said " they didn't "

a "photographer" is what they used to call a "trail blazer" or a "bushwhacker" ...
these days they break new ground, then they sit back an others do the same and post their images on flickr...( or FB )

then programmers figure out how to make something look l ike that, and make the plug in to mimic it.

as long as you can read the swedish or danish instructions you too can make a faux gum over plainotype

The other expression out there is one takes a photograph and one makes a photograph.

But like I said earlier, to me it's all down to motive and intent. One person wants a snapshot and the other wants something more.
 

blansky

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If the monkey can do that great, he made art. I suspect not. If someone wants to present the monkey's picture as art, it is that person's art, not the monkey's or traffic camera's or googlemap cam's art.

We had that discussion a while back I think, about a monkey someone gave a camera to and he took a bunch of pictures. We also had one about a blind person pointing a camera around, and those pictures being....
something, not sure if it was art or not.
 

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The other expression out there is one takes a photograph and one makes a photograph.

But like I said earlier, to me it's all down to motive and intent. One person wants a snapshot and the other wants something more.

yup, 100% agreement .
 
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blansky,

If there are history books published as feminist lesbian history of george washington , you can give medal to blind photographer also..

umut
 

Dali

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If the monkey can do that great, he made art. I suspect not. If someone wants to present the monkey's picture as art, it is that person's art, not the monkey's or traffic camera's or googlemap cam's art.

Yep, art needs recognition from a third party. It is not the monkey's concern (but it is definitely a money concern...).
 

blansky

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blansky,

If there are history books published as feminist lesbian history of george washington , you can give medal to blind photographer also..

umut

Yeah, not something I might want to invest in but I think Dali's comment above covers it, and there would definitely be buyers.
 

Theo Sulphate

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An interesting example, but if I had created that exact image and submitted it to Sotheby's, they would have replied that is was just a snapshot without merit. Having already submitted images to Sotheby's, which were taken by a very well known photographer, I know exactly how that works. It has everything to do with provenance,the photographer's reputation, and previous sales history, and nothing to do with the image itself. The tricycle is a good example of that. It is after all . . . just a snapshot.

You know it's a snapshot, I know it's a snapshot, as do many others. This photo is a perfect example of "The Emperor's New Clothes". Many others will say "oh, you just don't understand art". Web articles have already been written saying that about the photo. But, given a double-blind test, no one would pay $5.00 for this photo.

I feel the same way about everything Picasso has done. He was a charlatan in a community of sycophants. Again, in a double blind test put his lesser known "work" among those drawn by 5-year olds. See what gets chosen as being great.
 

dpurdy

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I feel the same way about everything Picasso has done. He was a charlatan in a community of sycophants. Again, in a double blind test put his lesser known "work" among those drawn by 5-year olds. See what gets chosen as being great.

HAHA. Picasso was great! And you must be blind not to see it.
 

Theo Sulphate

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HAHA. Picasso was great! And you must be blind not to see it.


Since I cannot perceive Emperor Picasso's greatness, I must be unfit for my position, stupid, or incompetent.
 

blansky

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An interesting example, but if I had created that exact image and submitted it to Sotheby's, they would have replied that is was just a snapshot without merit. Having already submitted images to Sotheby's, which were taken by a very well known photographer, I know exactly how that works. It has everything to do with provenance,the photographer's reputation, and previous sales history, and nothing to do with the image itself. The tricycle is a good example of that. It is after all . . . just a snapshot.

This is an interesting concept/dilemma.

We had a similar discussion in the gallery on a picture I liked when I said I actually respected it, more than perhaps liked it, and it was because at the side you can see other works by the author, and it showed an obvious attempt at a diversion in his "style". So the picture in question had it been presented by a newby I would have just dismissed. ( I'm not saying I'm any real art critic or any credentialed critic at all, I just critique partly because few do, and partly because I been doing photography for a while).

My reply to be called out on the fact of my dismissing a newby on a picture and accepting a seasoned person was the feeling I have of context. And it related to I guess, doing something on purpose. The seasoned photographer did this picture for reasons, and it stood up for those reasons, whereby if someone just shot something and said here's my picture and he thought it was pretty or had any merit, we could dismiss it because he didn't have the "credentials" to defend it.

Perhaps it's like legal argument. I hear your opinion, now argue why it has merit. Defend your choices.

Now the art world we all know operates on hype, hipness, dollar signs dancing in gallery owners eyes, hanger-oners, and loose women, but there is also the concept in most artistic endeavors of that something wasn't a fluke, and can be defended, and repeated.

In the publishing world and in the screenplay world if you turn in a piece of your work and they like it, they usually ask for more of what you've done. They want to see a pattern, to see that it's not a fluke, to see if you are worth their time and investment in the long haul. Not a one hit wonder and just lucked out this time.

That's what I mean by context. And when we try to decide if a picture, any picture can stand alone, as really we should expect it to, but that's not really how our life works we want context, motives, why did you do this, what were you thinking, and then we can invest our time or money or admiration in you if you have the right answer.

And this ties into the other thread of snapshots vs "serious" work in that a "serious" photographer can defend their choices. They did something on purpose.

The interesting thing in all of the babble though is to some people, a kids painting hanging on the fridge, can have far more importance to people than the Mona Lisa hanging in the living room.
 
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DannL.

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Here's a link to a 2012 sale of the Tricycle (untitled), if not already posted.

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/photographs/william-eggleston-untitled-1970-5536850-details.aspx

It makes me wonder how somebody valuates a 44x60 inch piece of paper @ $578,000. I sure hope it's is archival to some degree. I would hate to be the buyer left holding the bag. That one that chose to hold on to it too long, when it begins to noticeably yellow and fade.

Though, on some levels I do like the image. Being a 60's child myself, it brings back many memories of my youth. So, $57.80 is my final offer. ;-)
 
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blansky

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Here's a link to a 2012 sale of the Tricycle (untitled), if not already posted.

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/photographs/william-eggleston-untitled-1970-5536850-details.aspx

It makes me wonder how somebody valuates a 44x60 inch piece of paper @ $578,000. I sure hope it's is archival to some degree. I would hate be the buyer left holding the bag, the buyer that chose to hold on to it too long, when it starts to noticeably yellow and fade.

Though, on some levels I do like the image. Being a 60's child myself, it brings back many memories of my youth. So, $57.80 is my final offer. ;-)

I can't really comment on the money aspect because that's all supply and demand and other stuff. As for the picture I love it. A lot.

To think that anyone could say that this could be a snapshot is crazy to me. A great photographer once said, "take a common thing in an uncommon manner and you will have impact".

The angle, the strength of the tricycle, the suburbia, the colors, perhaps the nostalgia, everything makes this a great picture. And sometimes you get the obvious, "shit, why didn't shoot it like that" aspect as well.

It also says, "my first transportation....I RULE THE WORLD"

Not to be too hyperbolic but this to me is the true essence of art. Common elevated to universal emotional reflection.

Love it.
 

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Theo Sulphate

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The angle, the strength of the tricycle, the suburbia, the colors, perhaps the nostalgia, everything makes this a great picture. And sometimes you get the obvious, "shit, why didn't shoot it like that" aspect as well.
of art.

But there are thousands if not tens of thousands of photos like that and which capture that suburban nostalgia - though I'll grant that nearly all won't be at that angle or perspective. Even so, the point is that that exact photo, if submitted by the late Fred A. Fotoman instead of Eggleston, would go nowhere.

I understand your point about context, and agree with it to some extent, but ultimately the photo, painting, sculpture, or other act has to be judged on its own merit. Otherwise, and I hope this isn't the case, if I take a pencil and put an "X" on a piece of paper, it's worth $0.00, but if Picasso makes that same "X", it's worth thousands. In that case, it's not the work itself that has value, but the fame of the artist.
 
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blansky

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But there are thousands if not tens of thousands of photos like that and which capture that suburban nostalgia - though I'll grant that nearly all won't be at that angle or perspective. Even so, the point is that that exact photo, if submitted by the late Fred A. Fotoman instead of Eggleston, would go nowhere.

I understand your point about context, and agree with it to some extent, but ultimately the photo, painting, sculpture, or other act has to be judged on its own merit. Otherwise, and I hope this isn't the case, if I take a pencil and put an "X" on a piece of paper, it's worth $0.00, but if Picasso makes that same "X", it's worth thousands. In that case, it's not the work itself that has value, but the fame of the artist.

But the angle and perspective is what makes it. The exact point is that there are thousands, but this one made it different and perhaps unique. The common thing done in an uncommon way. Almost everything has been done before. The trick is, to copy a slogan...think different.

As for the money stuff that is merely marketing and supply and demand and really means nothing. If I want it, and have all the money in the world, what do I care if I pay 10 million. I have billions.

As for Eggleston, believe it or not I don't follow or study other photographers to any degree at all, and never really heard of him. The picture stands on it's own for me.

But I do agree that fame brings fame. And not always from merit. Such is the world. It feeds the media machine. Not fair but there you have it.
 
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