Eastman Kodak, 1st quarter 2015

[wblynch]

I am glad to hear that film is making a profit for Kodak. (although I believe it always has)

 

[shutterlight]

Actually the thing that bothers me most about Kodak going down is what happens to Portra.

Likewise-- I don't really care about Kodak black and white films. Sorry-- Ilford does a great job with that. Maybe it isn't quite what you're used to, if you're a Tri-X fan, or TMAX, but it's still high quality. For those of us who rely on Portra, it's a different story. 400H is the only equivalent out there, and fuji has shown much less interest to keep going with film than Kodak. Portra 400 is so versatile, and such a remarkable film all around, and I can use it for virtually anything. If it goes away, it's all over for my work as I know it. I would adapt, probably by buying 400H at first, but when that's gone, I would have to completely transition to digital. I don't do B/W-- just color.

 

[film_man]

Kodak is not still trying to remain in the film business. That residual business lingers simply as an increasingly inconvenient artifact of the past.

Which is infuriating when they say that it is not a loss making division of the company, yet that's where it is heading from the neglect...

 

[Xmas]

Well I'm happy to be corrected but EK have tied contracts with several of the studios for long intervals, and master rolls from the end of the coating run would keep you in c41 for a while afterwards.

Ferrani might have a C41 film by then.

Their old films were pretty good before they stopped.

You could think of them as vultures sitting on a fence waiting for the yellow dinosaur to stop breathing.

C41 mini labs are simple animals and should be about. I've no problems home processing or scratch mixing.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Well I'm happy to be corrected but EK have tied contracts with several of the studios for long intervals...

OK, I'll correct this misinformation again. Except to those who are bound not to disclose, only one of those contracts' duration is known: two years. In my opinion, two years is not a long interval. The other studio contracts are of indeterminate (to those of us on the outside) length.

...master rolls from the end of the coating run would keep you in c41 for a while afterwards...

Master rolls from the end of Kodak motion picture coating would be ECN-2, not C-41, compatible. Unless you're referring to C-41 master rolls produced while Bldg. 38 was still coating them during the period when motion picture film kept that facility alive.

 

[Xmas]

OK, I'll correct this misinformation again. Except to those who are bound not to disclose, only one of those contracts' duration is known: two years. In my opinion, two years is not a long interval. The other studio contracts are of indeterminate (to those of us on the outside) length.

Master rolls from the end of Kodak motion picture coating would be ECN-2, not C-41, compatible. Unless you're referring to C-41 master rolls produced while Bldg. 38 was still coating them during the period when motion picture film kept that facility alive.

Thanks but two years is a longer interval than till tomorrow or yesterday. They won't tell us even after it stops necessarily unless a disgruntled worker leaks.

I did not expect them to reach any agreement with the studios, post any ch11 exit contract.

Confirmed the last c41 master, once they stop cine they have no incentive to keep staff on beyond hazmat disposal then any kit is fire sale then wrecking ball... And I'd like a 5222 400 or 1000 foot can if it were cheap.

We don't know what volume the c41 emulsions are selling at eg if they only need one master a year...

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Thanks but two years is a longer interval than till tomorrow or yesterday. They won't tell us even after it stops necessarily unless a disgruntled worker leaks.

And it might be a short enough interval that they could also conceivably have already made their final rolls and have already begun decommissioning operations, if all of the agreements were for a similar duration.

Just speculation, but if they asked the studios about possible future contract extensions, and the reply was "Nope", then I would not be surprised if this was the case.

Ken

 

[MattKing]

PE has posted a few times that the coating machine in Building 38 appears to be running regularly. Maybe he would like to confirm that that seems to still be the case.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Obviously it is speculation for illustration as labeled and I have no insider knowledge. The illustrative point being, Kodak has not publicly made any reliable, non-BS, film-related, forward-reference statements for years. They are not going to suddenly start now. And a reported 2-year MP contract commitment is not exactly a long-term strategic instrument.

By design, we on the outside really do not know what they are thinking or doing. For all we know, the final production of C-41 and/or B&W could indeed have already been wrapped up, with final MP stocks to follow. Or not...

That's the thing about opaqueness. You can't see through it. You can only guess.

Ken

 

[RattyMouse]

Obviously it is speculation for illustration as labeled and I have no insider knowledge. The illustrative point being, Kodak has not publicly made any reliable, non-BS, film-related, forward-reference statements for years. They are not going to suddenly start now. And a reported 2-year MP contract commitment is not exactly a long-term strategic instrument.

By design, we on the outside really do not know what they are thinking or doing. For all we know, the final production of C-41 and/or B&W could indeed have already been wrapped up, with final MP stocks to follow. Or not...

That's the thing about opaqueness. You can't see through it. You can only guess.

Ken

Still photography film is such an unimportant part of Kodak, that I doubt very much they ever consider releasing news to such an insignificant number of customers.

Film sales are down 96% by Kodak's own numbers. Exactly how many master rolls of film of Portra does this represent? 1? 2? 5?

You dont keep a factory running that has lost 96% of its production volume. You either re-size or close up shop.

As Sal has succinctly put it some time ago, "Building 38 is a dead man walking".

 

[RattyMouse]

I wonder, does Fujifilm have a "Building 38" somewhere? We know a lot about Kodak's facilities but I never hear much about Fujifilm. They bailed out of movie film 2 years ago but have stayed with color film. Have they downsized? Where does their film come from? What city is their production facility in?

 

[Xmas]

Fuji only do one mono film ACROS.
There is a lot of rebadged Fuji being dumped as Agfa Vista.
Kodak only have building 38 left cause they closed down all the other film coating lines in 2004-5.
You can make more profit with one set of workers and one coating machine, etc., if it can meet demand.

 

[georg16nik]

I wonder, does Fujifilm have a "Building 38" somewhere? We know a lot about Kodak's facilities but I never hear much about Fujifilm. They bailed out of movie film 2 years ago but have stayed with color film. Have they downsized? Where does their film come from? What city is their production facility in?

Film sales might be down 96% for Kodak but I doubt they count the film used for archiving pretty much every feature film, even the digital born ones. Kodak released a new color film (5254 / 2254) in late 2012, quoting dye stability of 100+ years.
I doubt they will stop producing that one and the separation masters anytime soon.

Fujifilm are still in the movie biz with ETERNA-RDS http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/lineup/eterna_rds/
Until there is a reliable and cheaper alternative to film, I don't see how Kodak or Fuji will stop producing their arch/repro films, hopefully Kodak might be able to roll some Ektar or Portra on the same machine for quite some time.

 

[wblynch]

You dont keep a factory running that has lost 96% of its production volume. You either re-size or close up shop.

profit, yet it makes

 

[Rudeofus]

While movie directors may or may not want to shoot movies on film, and while movie theaters switch to digital in droves, film studios prefer film as archival storage medium for their movies. That appears to be Kodak's new business model towards movie studios, and there should be demand for this in the foreseeable future unless a digital archiving system appears which beats film in cost and durability.

 

[Element 6]

film studios prefer film as archival storage medium

Me too! I prefer my book shelf of storage boxes full of old negatives and slides, which has remained there without any maintenance on my part for years, over my wife's RAID 6 data center I seem to have to rebuild every 6 months; not to mention the power bill. And she still comments a few files are missing.

 

[cmacd123]

Kodak released a new color film (5254 / 2254) in late 2012, quoting dye stability of 100+ years.
I doubt they will stop producing that one and the separation masters anytime soon.

I thought it was already dead, looking on the "go motion" web site the only archival films are :
KODAK VISION3 Digital Separation Film 2237
KODAK VISION3 Color Digital Intermediate Film 2254/5254
KODAK Panchromatic Separation Film 2238

2238 would be the one for Separation negatives from film originals.

The archival film was a close cousin of the regular print film, but finished with BH1866 perfs for better registration. I heard it had little in the way of sales. Studio Management is famous for not understanding what is needed to preserve projects long term.

Fujifilm are still in the movie biz with ETERNA-RDS http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/lineup/eterna_rds/
Until there is a reliable and cheaper alternative to film, I don't see how Kodak or Fuji will stop producing their arch/repro films,

The RDS is the only survivor of the Fuji Movie line up, and it is a fairly simple B&W film

 

[redstarjedi]

I wonder, does Fujifilm have a "Building 38" somewhere? We know a lot about Kodak's facilities but I never hear much about Fujifilm. They bailed out of movie film 2 years ago but have stayed with color film. Have they downsized? Where does their film come from? What city is their production facility in?

I remember once that i saw a photo on flickr of the fuji plan which produces provia, which was shot on provia. It was in rural japan and seemed quite small. I wonder if fuji retained smaller plants and didnt consolidate and upscale like kodak.

It is VERY intriguing that fuji still makes some film after exiting cinema film. However, they could never really compete with kodak in cinema film.

 

[Xmas]

I remember once that i saw a photo on flickr of the fuji plan which produces provia, which was shot on provia. It was in rural japan and seemed quite small. I wonder if fuji retained smaller plants and didnt consolidate and upscale like kodak.

It is VERY intriguing that fuji still makes some film after exiting cinema film. However, they could never really compete with kodak in cinema film.

I'm still using Ilford cine...

Kodak had closed contracts with the big studios, they had trouble competing with Fuji in open markets.

Film developments were subsidised by military for wars, both intelligence and propaganda.

 

[lucamercedes]

I think and hope Kodak will continue producing film for a long time - it does see a revival now. Film is NOT dead. I do love my PORTRA and EKTAR.

All the best,
Luca

 

[AgX]

Luca, film not being dead and manufacturing film we like in plants designed for magnitudes of current production are two different things.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

I think and hope Kodak will continue producing film for a long time - it does see a revival now. Film is NOT dead. I do love my PORTRA and EKTAR.

All the best,
Luca

Welcome to APUG...

Unfortunately, the fate of the small number of remaining Kodak-branded films is out of our hands. The aggregate number of users of Kodak still films, and the volumes they consume, are microscopically small when compared to the volumes Kodak's production machinery require in order to remain profitable.

Right now the only thing keeping Kodak producing film are a series of agreements with the motion picture industry to continue manufacturing Kodak motion picture film stock. When those agreements expire, perhaps in as little as two years or less, then unless the production machinery can be sufficiently repurposed to include other non-film areas, in all likelihood it will be scrapped.

Sadly, the economic and business forces at work behind the scenes are all far more powerful than anything the tiny number of remaining Kodak still film consumers can generate. At this point those users are simply along for the ride, dearly hoping for a good outcome, but no longer in control of that outcome.

Ken

 

[RattyMouse]

Is Bollywood going digital as fast as Hollywood?

 

[AgX]

It has long ago gone digital.

 

[Xmas]

Although the majority of cine people have gone digital, some people are still shooting film.

Seen a Bollywood team in London fall of '12, spoke to UK film director last fall both still using 35mm.

But this is small minority. Print film for release distribution was the big volume this is shrinking as theaters go digital.

If you can get 16mm film high resolution digitalisation allows some cost savings.

Cine is expensive.