e6-like black and white

dmtnkl · Jul 25, 2017

Just a naive question given my extremely limited knowledge of development processes and film chemistry.

Wouldn't it be possible at all to have an e6-like black and white reversal workflow that uses very similiar steps, but instead of 3 distinct color dyes have one gray-scale dye and related couplers?

I am just curious because i am not sure i know of any easily accessible b&w reversal processes and reversal with reexposure using light seems a bit uncomfortable. I am only aware of the chemical reversal from DR5 and klaus wehner in germany ( i think his kit has many many steps, but i could also be wrong).

It could also be that my question is completely off and does not make any sense at all.

Anon Ymous · Jul 25, 2017

You could in theory have an E6 like bw slide, but this is rather pointless from a commercial perspective. Processing a typical bw film as a slide is not as convoluted as it seems. Reexposure using light might feel uncomfortable, but is much easier than you think. If you still think that it's tough, then a chemical fogging solution based on stannous chloride can be used. Search for Jens Osbahr's reversal process if you're interested to know more.

On the other hand, making a dye based bw slide from a typical bw film is also doable, but involves sourcing specialised chemicals that will create the dye clouds in the film. Practically, the second developer in the bw reversal process should contain the couplers needed to create the dyes and a development agent that will facilitate dye formation. A rehalogenating bleach should be the next stage, followed by the fixer. This way, there should be no silver left, but only a positive dye image.

dmtnkl · Jul 25, 2017

I guess what you describe sounds a bit more like kodachrome, where the couplers were in the development chemistry?

I think with e6 the couplers are in the film itself and they react with the silver crystals of the opposing end of the color spectrum, in order to form the dye and do the reversal at the same time. Wouldn't it be possible to follow such an approach for b&w?

Again, i might be completely off as i probably have no clue what i am talking about.

Anon Ymous · Jul 25, 2017

dmtnkl said:
I guess what you describe sounds a bit more like kodachrome, where the couplers were in the development chemistry?

Basically, yes, that's kodachrome-like.

dmtnkl said:
I think with e6 the couplers are in the film itself and they react with the silver crystals of the opposing end of the color spectrum, in order to form the dye and do the reversal at the same time. Wouldn't it be possible to follow such an approach for b&w?

Again, i might be completely off as i probably have no clue what i am talking about.

It would be possible to have a bw E6 film, but such a product would have very, very low sales today. I don't even know if such a product ever existed in the olden days...

dmtnkl · Jul 25, 2017

I thought about an e6 like approach since kodachrome is notorious for its complicated processing.

Cool, let's hope more people comment on this, it would be very interesting to hear more on the topic

Paul Howell · Jul 25, 2017

A version of Scala is back on the market, Freestyle will have in stock next week. I think is now under Adox, don't know how close this version is to the Agfa version. I used Scala when I shot slides, nice look.

dmtnkl · Jul 25, 2017

yes but these films are traditional b&w films basically. Scala is basically a process which also works for other films and uses light reexposure for reversal.

Prof_Pixel · Jul 25, 2017

I think you can still get Ilford XP2 Super Black and White Negative Film that is a C41 process B&W film.

Gerald C Koch · Jul 25, 2017

Have you searched the web to see if anyone offers to reversal process conventional films since you appear not to be interested in doing it yourself?

removed account4 · Jul 25, 2017

kodak used to make a reversal kit for tmx100 that turned b/w film into diapositives/chromes/slides
the photographer's formulary sells a similar kit.

destroya · Jul 25, 2017

you can reversal develop most films. I have had great success using tradional grained films like Fp4, silvermax and all the rollei retro films, which are the best cause of the clear film base. do a search for

black and white reversal

and you will find many threads on the subject. I use a chemical re-exposure which really simplifies the whole process.

railwayman3 · Jul 26, 2017

Maybe the OP is thinking of a reversal film using E6, on the same lines at the C-41 B&W films which are (or were) available. But a relatively simple reversal process can be used on conventional B&W films with excellent results....there used to be Agfa DiaDirect and later Scala, which were particularly good as they had a clear film base which did not decrease the illumination when projected., and it looks as though Adox is now offering something similar. It it's anything like the Agfa products, it will be worth a try.

twelvetone12 · Jul 26, 2017

I guess cross processing xp1 in e6? There is a guy in flikr that tried it:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/24481513@N00/sets/72157604733372956/

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2017

Any B&W film can be processed as a Chromogenic film where the final image is dye based rather than Silver. You just add the colour couplers to the colour developer, you'd need to balance the couplers to achieve the image colour you required, here's (there was a url link here which no longer exists) a commercial process more here (it's my leaflet).. It's easy to make up your own solutions they were published in BJP Almanacs and Annuals.

For Reversal (like E6) the second developer is the colour developer, however straight B&W reversal is all that's really needed and there's a lot of Reversal processes in the Resources section.

Ian

dmtnkl · Jul 26, 2017

railwayman3 said:
Maybe the OP is thinking of a reversal film using E6, on the same lines at the C-41 B&W films which are (or were) available. But a relatively simple reversal process can be used on conventional B&W films with excellent results....there used to be Agfa DiaDirect and later Scala, which were particularly good as they had a clear film base which did not decrease the illumination when projected., and it looks as though Adox is now offering something similar. It it's anything like the Agfa products, it will be worth a try.

I am aware of processes for reversal processing of normal b&w films.

And from this stems the original intent of my question, ie how feasible would it be to specifically produce a film only for reversal processing, conceptually along the lines of color e6.

I guess i have a lot more to read and research

Prof_Pixel · Jul 26, 2017

dmtnkl said:
... from this stems the original intent of my question, ie how feasible would it be to specifically produce a film only for reversal processing, conceptually along the lines of color e6.

Since a couple of manufacturers have made B&W Chromogenic Negative films in the past, it would seem to be fairly easy to make such a positive film. However, I doubt there is any significant market for such a film, so why would any manufacturer WANT to do so?

dmtnkl · Jul 26, 2017

yes probably it does not make any sense form a market perspective.

I was just wondering more on a personal level how feasible it would be and how well it would work.

twelvetone12 · Jul 26, 2017

Ian's solution is actually quite interesting, and you would basically make a black and white (or whatever color you want) Kodachrome slide. The difference with an e6 film is that it does not incorporate the dye couplers. I also guess an e6 film that generates a bw image using the appropriate dyes would be possible, but why? A BW c41 makes sense since labs and minilabs would process it, but e6 is more of a speciality nowadays.
But now I want to try Ian's solution...

dmtnkl · Jul 26, 2017

Well, in many cities e6 i still quite available, although on a smaller scale when compared to c41.

The concept was to have a film specifically engineered for reversal and a standardized development process, like e6 for color, that labs could agree on. From what i understand now, pretty much everyone is doing their own thing when it comes to b&w reversal, which is of course good and bad at the same time. Where i am, some well known labs/outfits cannot even give straight answers on the topic while others say "we mix our own stuff", which frankly is not very helpful for me to predict the quality of their work before i spend money and actually try them.

I agree that now it probably makes no sense commercially, buts it's something to think about sometimes while on train to work

And if you try an approach with dye couplers in the development chemistry, do not forget to show us the results!

mrosenlof · Jul 28, 2017

I've had XP2 cross processed in E-6. It was back in the 90s, but the (pro) lab didn't blink at it. The slides had a greenish tint, were a bit contrasty, but OK. These days if I wanted B/W slides, I would probably go either the DR5 route or home processing.

thuggins · Jul 31, 2017

I just tried this with a roll of XP2 that was lying around and the Tetenal kit. The result definitely has a green tint, but it is actually kind of nice. It is reminiscent of when they would put a color filter over a B&W film to make it more "lively".

The roll was shot with my OM-4T to make sure the exposure was dead on. But the resulting positives were quite dark. More than one stop, closer to two. One reason is probably the first developer, as this was the tenth roll in this mix. The development time was extended but probably not enough. It may be necessary to adjust the exposure also. Anyway, I ordered a few more rolls and will try again with a new batch of chemicals.

There is a lot of enthusiasm here for the reversal processing method, but let's be honest. The bleach required is pretty nasty stuff and the refogging is cumbersome at best. These two steps make it a completely different world from normal B&W (or three bath color) processing.

dmtnkl · Jul 31, 2017

I have seen some XP2 in E6 over the internet and they definitely look green. Although the initial question was not about cross processing regular or c41 b&w film, it would be cool if you can share some examples of your results.

thuggins said:
There is a lot of enthusiasm here for the reversal processing method, but let's be honest. The bleach required is pretty nasty stuff and the refogging is cumbersome at best. These two steps make it a completely different world from normal B&W (or three bath color) processing.

It seems that for some people these steps seem easy and not cumbersome at all. I was talking with another guy the other day and he told me that with some basic precautions you shouldn't have a lot to worry about.

However, with my limited experience, i would have to agree with you. And this is why i tried to start a conversation on a film+process designed specifically for b&w slides (and not using existing film with cumbersome or cross processing techniques), much like the e6 chemistry and associated color emulsions.

thuggins · Aug 1, 2017

dmtnkl said:
It seems that for some people these steps seem easy and not cumbersome at all. I was talking with another guy the other day and he told me that with some basic precautions you shouldn't have a lot to worry about.

However, with my limited experience, i would have to agree with you. And this is why i tried to start a conversation on a film+process designed specifically for b&w slides (and not using existing film with cumbersome or cross processing techniques), much like the e6 chemistry and associated color emulsions.

Far be it from me to question anything someone on the internet says. But the bleach in the reversal process is basically battery acid. I handle both the standard B&W as well as E-6 the same way I handle cooking ingredients and have not had any problems. Battery acid is a whole 'nother thing. That would be bad enough, but the refogging involves extensive handling of wet, easily damaged film. With a chemical refogger it would certainly be easier, but still has challenges.

The E-6 cross processing is not much more difficult than normal B&W processing. Your choice of chemicals is more limited and you do have to maintain the temperature much closer. But both B&W and the Tetenal process are four steps, including the wetting agent.

I have also experimented with positive release film, used for making movie prints. The results are pretty good but it takes some practice and trial and error. See my thread titled Positive Results for some info on this process.

thuggins · Aug 20, 2017

Having tried several times now, the solution with XP2 appears to be both overexpose and overdevelop. Overexposing by one stop and overdeveloping by 25% (first developer) gives excellent results. A slight greenish blue cast, but actually quite nice.

I'll post some samples when I get a chance, but right now all the cameras are on tripods mounted with telescopic lenses with solar filters. Praying for a clear day for the eclipse.

thuggins · Aug 27, 2017

Here ya go. As with everything reproduced d!&!+@||y, the originals have a lot more "punch".

e6-like black and white

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