E6 - lab versus Cinestill kit?

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Dazzer123

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Hi folks,

Does anyone have any experience in what you could expect when comparing E6 lab development to DIY?

Is there some reason why a lab development should be inherently better, or vica versa?

I just did my first development with Cinestill CS6 and the results weren't too great. Partly it was my bad exposure, but i also had to work like crazy with color curves in Lightroom to get a decent result.

So i'm wondering if this is just the way it goes with DIY E6 processing?

I found this example on Flickr (2 pix below), and something like this is my goal. So, to have to do almost nothing in post pro after development.

(I don't know how this pic was developed by the way, i sent the guy a message, hoping for a reply.)

Any ideas? ......... Thanks!


main.jpg

slide.jpg
 

koraks

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Cinestill CS6

That's a bit of an oddball E6 kit and many people seem to have trouble with this. I'd recommend trying again with real E6 chemistry. The drawback is that this will likely be more expensive than the Cinestill variant and it may be (much) more difficult to find chemistry that's affordable and available in sensible quantities.

So i'm wondering if this is just the way it goes with DIY E6 processing?

Certainly not. If done correctly, the results will be identical to what you get from a lab.

To be frank, unless you're shooting sheet film, which is rather expensive to get developed commercially, I'd really consider bringing your E6 film to a lab. HEMA still takes it and sends it to a (big) lab for processing and their rates are still very sensible indeed. It's hard to beat also in terms of economy by doing it yourself. Again, sheet film is an exception.

Can you show a sample of your actual results so perhaps people can comment on what may have gone wrong?
 
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Dazzer123

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OK, thanks!

I'm doing 4x5, i'm guessing HEMA don't do that?

Do you have any links for me for where it describes "real" E6 chemistry and where to buy it?

Here below are my before and after pix. This is just a test shot, it's not supposed to be something special. The first pic is the straight scan and that's pretty much what the pic looks like on the light box, perhaps a bit darker. Obviously it's underexposed, but it also has a pretty extreme color cast.

orig.jpg


posi better 2 multi.jpg
 
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koraks

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I'm doing 4x5, i'm guessing HEMA don't do that?

No, I don't think the lab E6 film ends up will do E6 in 4x5.

o you have any links for me for where it describes "real" E6 chemistry and where to buy it?


Obviously it's underexposed, but it also has a pretty extreme color cast.

Doesn't look too bad to be honest. The lighting is of course a little eccentric, so I'm not surprised you end up with something not entirely neutral. It seems mostly underexposed, which may be actual underexposure or it may be insufficient development in the first developer. If this is expired film, a color cast (you seem to have a magenta cast mostly) can also result from this. If it's fresh film, then I'd suggest that something didn't work out as intended in the first developer step.

PS: how did you process these? Trays? Jobo processor? Stearman press tank? Something else? How did you control temperature? What kind of agitation did you use? Especially the first developer is a critical step in all this.
 
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Dazzer123

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Ah-ha!

Yes, i chose tricky / weird lighting on purpose, with the idea that if i can nail this shot, most other studio shots should be possible.

Thanks for the link.

Any idea what "Hunt" means in terms of the kit? Just curious (it's not important) why it isn't called "Fuji Chrome 6X E6 film processing kit".

I found (i think) the manual here:


Here is a screenshot of the temperatures (below).

I'm curious why there is temperature latitude listed. Why don't they just (or at least also) quote the optimal temperature? I mention this because if you can just do every step at say 38°, then even though it's 9 steps, it's not too bad as you can keep everything at the same temperature.

Cinestill requires some different temperatures, which makes it tricky in terms of pre-heating chemicals and preparing water.

Cinestill is 3 steps, one has to conclude their cutting corners somewhere?!

The price isn't too bad, in fact i think it's cheaper than using Cinestill!

If i understand the list below, nitrogen agitation is mandatory in two of the steps?



e6-2.png
 

koraks

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Any idea what "Hunt" means in terms of the kit?
Hunt Chemicals was an American chemistry firm that opened a factory in (among others) Belgium in 1968. This was bought by FUJIFILM in 1989. By that time, the factory was already producing chemistry for FUJIFILM. It's now still operating under the name FUJIFILM Hunt. Much of the FUJIFILM color chemistry for minilabs in Europe comes from this particular plant.


That's an old one. I don't think the color chemistry pages on Bonavolta.ch are actively maintained.

Google turns up this recent E6 manual from FUJIFILM: https://asset.fujifilm.com/www/nl/files/2021-05/3b66e59738c725cc366e4d03f9320329/TB_E6_E01_10-20.pdf
It's fairly recent (2020).

I'm curious why there is temperature latitude listed.

I don't know either. Like I said, I wouldn't rely on that old document. The more recent one I linked to above is more specific.

Cinestill is 3 steps, one has to conclude their cutting corners somewhere?!

You're starting to catch on why I'm a bit hesitant to recommend their E6 kit. Btw, in C41 they also cut corners in ways that aren't guaranteed to give optimal results in the long run.

nitrogen agitation is mandatory in two of the steps?

Not really, but that's how big labs do it n dip & dunk and continuous transport machines. Other modes of agitation are OK too, such as a Jobo rotary processor.
The table you dug up is an odd mixture of instructions for big labs and small tank processing. It's just plain weird to be honest.
 

Oleg_A

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Your image looks underexposed and (possibly) underdeveloped in the first developer. The underdevelopment may be the result of insufficient rotation. I suggest constantly rotating the film during all steps. Also, distilled water for developers is to the resque. Tetenal and Bellini are two E-6 kits of choice for myself. One absolutely must wash the film in running water in between processing steps. I hope, this helps, but, when you decide to undertake transparencies, you'll need to either invest into best flashmeters, or to have an OTF (off the film) measurement in you camera. My first experience with transparencies gave me some 20-25 correctly exposed frames out of 6 (!) 36-exposure films. Since that time, I never rely on myself, when shooting slides.
 
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Dazzer123

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Thanks guys.

More Cinestill problems reported here:



As you can see with my second shot, it's possible to get passable results using Cinestill, but you need to jump through some hoops afterwards. I guess it makes sense. Why does commercial E6 processing need 7 steps, and Cinestill only 3? There must be a compromise somewhere.

I'm going to finish off this box of Ektachrome and Cinestill chemicals, then try the Hunt kit. I found the differing water temperatures with Cinestill a pain in the butt, if i can keep everything at 38°, then it doesn't seem much more difficult to do the Hunt process.
 

Anon Ymous

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Why does commercial E6 processing need 7 steps, and Cinestill only 3? There must be a compromise somewhere.

They have combined the fogging bath with the colour developer, bleach with fix (making it a blix) and also added the bleach accelerator (that would be in the prebleach step) in the blix. But they seem to have skipped the final rinse - stabiliser bath, which is a bad idea.
 

blee1996

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If you are a beginner in E6 processing, I would recommend something a bit less complex than Fuji Hunt but more advanced than Cinestill. I had good results from home processing that is comparable to labs (Precision Camera & Video in Austin TX, and Dwayne's in Parsons KS).

I have been using Tetenal E6 1L kit with consistently good results. But they are out of stock right now, so maybe you can try Bellini E6 kit. I personally don't have experience with Bellini, but there is a thread where people said good things about it.

Of course, E6 needs a bit more care in exposure, as well as temperature control and timing during processing.
 

koraks

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Why does commercial E6 processing need 7 steps, and Cinestill only 3? There must be a compromise somewhere.

Part of the story is what @Anon Ymous explains. They do cut corners here and there, and in some cases, that might be problematic. Especially the use of a blix for E6 to the best of my knowledge is a fundamentally compromised situation.

Another part is that lab-oriented chemistry is aimed at maintenance of chemical baths and minimal waste (and optimal performance of course). From a viewpoint of replenishment, recovery and waste water treatment, it may therefore be disadvantageous to combine certain baths. For a home user, this is of course of lesser importance.

A final argument relates to troubleshooting and extends the former line of reasoning; if there's a problem with e.g. the fogging step and you're using a 7-step process, you can troubleshoot just that step without having to discard e.g. the color developer along with the fogging bath if the latter happens to be broken beyond repair. This is relevant for labs, but certainly also for home users, especially in the long run, where you could extend the use of e.g. a bleach bath pretty far, while replacing the color developer a little earlier, etc. This way, you keep costs minimal as you only need to replace what needs replacement due to use or a failure somewhere.
 
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Dazzer123

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Right, and only the first 3 steps need to be done in darkness, so any of the subsequent steps can be checked, which i guess makes it easier to troubleshoot from step 4 onwards?
 
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Dazzer123

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If you are a beginner in E6 processing, I would recommend something a bit less complex than Fuji Hunt but more advanced than Cinestill. I had good results from home processing that is comparable to labs (Precision Camera & Video in Austin TX, and Dwayne's in Parsons KS).

I have been using Tetenal E6 1L kit with consistently good results. But they are out of stock right now, so maybe you can try Bellini E6 kit. I personally don't have experience with Bellini, but there is a thread where people said good things about it.

Of course, E6 needs a bit more care in exposure, as well as temperature control and timing during processing.

OK, but in principal each step is pretty simple, so as long as i follow the instructions fastidiously, i guess i should be ok?!
 

Mr Bill

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Why does commercial E6 processing need 7 steps, and Cinestill only 3? There must be a compromise somewhere.

It appears that Anon Ymous has given some specific details and koraks has given more general explanations.

I'm a former large lab guy with pretty substantial first-hand experience in what we loosely call "process control," by which I mostly mean dealing with 1) the actual results on film and 2) the chemical makeup of all the processing solutions. I should point out that I HAVE NO DIRECT PROCESSING EXPERIENCE WITH E6 (although I have, on request, occasionally made troubleshooting opinions for company-owned minilabs - long-distant past). The chemical solutions are essentially very similar to certain other processes.

Anon Ymous referred to a combining of bleach with fix in the Cinestill system, something that is also sometimes done in aftermarket C-41 (color negative) systems. I can elaborate on this, which may help in understanding some differences between commercial vs hobbyist processing. It's gonna be some tedious reading. Probably only a handful (or two) of people on this site will even give a hoot. But that's who I'm primarily writing this for, I guess.

In the commercial processing world it's generally important to hold chemical costs down as well as to deal with effluent issues (which can be seen as another chemical-related cost). So the number one cost-effective trick is to "replenish" the processing chemicals. This greatly reduces the amount and cost of the chemicals.

Essentially, a replenisher restores a processing solution back to its original aim specification (and performance). In a developer, for example, one doesn't have to just discard it after some limited use. As film is processed two main things happen: first is that development byproducts build up, and second is that some of the actual developing agent is "used up." So a proper replenisher would both dilute the byproducts and restore the developing-agent concentration back to aim specs. As this is done the developer stays in a steady-state condition, always good, never going into a marginal condition. In a C-41 developer replenishment makes it possible to reduce chemical costs by a factor of about ten times. The downside is that it takes some expertise (and additional labor costs) to keep things finely-tuned. For a large lab the extra labor costs are a small proportion of the chemical savings. For a small-scale hobbyist the balance goes the other way. So hobbyist oriented systems tend to make it simpler for the user. Use it as long as it seems more or less ok, then get rid of it.

But I digress... let me get back to the bleach and fix (again being more specific to C-41 color neg). The bleach has two fundamental components - the bleaching part and the halogen supply part (typically KBr, potassium bromide). As the bleach works on film the bleaching part becomes "exhausted" by being chemically "reduced." But... it can typically be restored by simply exposing it to oxygen (bubble air through it in commercial processing, perhaps shake it up in a larger bottle for hobbyists). But the bromide part will eventually be used up. Additionally the bleach is gradually diluted by "carryover" from whatever is in front of it. So... the proper bleach replenisher has to overcome the dilution effect plus add some extra bromide. Additionally the "exhausted" bleach part must be made "active" again (by simply aerating for certain types of bleach). This replenishment method makes the bleach very cheap chemically AND drastically reduces the waste volume. But... someone has to know what they're doing to keep things in control.

Now for the fixer... conventional rapid fixers go "bad" in two ways - first, they have limited capacity to pick up silver. So this helps to set a limit on ability to keep using. Second, the active fixing ingredient needs a "preservative" to protect it from oxidation (if the fixer gets oxidized too much it will go bad). It seems that a commercial user would ideally load up the fixer with as much silver as possible. But... there is a big problem with this... as some of this fixer eventually gets carried over into wash water it brings along enough silver (concentration-wise) to start a 4-alarm fire in the minds of environmental regulators.

In the US, at least, commercial processors generally cannot be connected to a "sewer" (a POTW, publicly owned treatment works) without a "sewering permit" which specifies a number of conditions which must be met. One of these sets a silver concentration limit which might possibly be low enough to be essentially unattainable by most people. In my experience regulating to something like two-tenths of a milligram silver per liter is not uncommon. (1 mg/L is roughly equivalent to one part per million, so two-tenths mg/L is equivalent to one part in five million. The numbers are roughly akin to controlling the population of New York City, pop around 8 to 9 million, to within one or two people.)

Back to the commercial processor's use of fixer... they would ideally use a multi-stage counter-current flow fixing setup that has highest silver concentration in the first fix tank, with the final fix tank containing low enough silver that it doesn't put the wash water over the permit limit. This is kinda a fine balancing act with a processing lab capable of doing silver analysis below 1/10 mg/L (silver-estimating paper can maybe see down to 1/2 g/L = 500 mg/L; roughly 5,000 times higher than desired analytical capability). Fwiw the way the photo industry dealt with the silver effluent limits in minilabs, back in the 1980s as I recall, was to invent the so-called "washless" systems. So a washless minilab did not need a sewer hookup. The total amount of effluent was greatly reduced, such that it was feasible to have (and pay for) a Hazardous Waste Hauler take it all.

So back to a lab's use of separate bleach and fix, vs combined into blix... when they are combined the lab doesn't have the ability to optimize the replenishment of either bleach or fix. And if they try to keep the bleach portion active by aerating, this destroys the preservative for the fixer portion (typically the preservative is sulfite ion, being oxidized to sulfate).

Now, if you're a hobbyist, you might be running something like 5 or 10, maybe 20 rolls of color film in a batch. Maybe more? For smaller amounts I'm guessing that a film blix MIGHT be ok for a while (total guess). Maybe the modern chemical outfits have got things tuned well enough to work ok? If you're running enough that replenishment might be worthwhile then you're likely better off having separate bleach and fixer. Then you'll have the ability to aerate the bleach to keep it healthy over an extended time (virtually forever if you replenish it). Plus you could run a two-stage fixer with optimized replenishment rates. On the other hand if the hobbyist doesn't care that much about recovering the silver, well, whatever. I doubt they'll have any regulators stopping by to check their effluent.

Anyway, once one sees the possible complexity of running some given process, one can better appreciate why the simplified aftermarket systems exist. Mix it up according to instructions, use it as far as you feel comfortable going then discard. As long as you're gonna scan the film you can probably deal with about anything, process-wise.
 
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Dazzer123

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Mr Bill, thanks for the detailed info and sharing your expertise, an interesting read, even if it mostly went over my head! 😅

I'm curious, when commercially replenishing, is it still the case that after (to pick a number out of the air) 6 months you still throw everything away and start anew, or is it really a never ending, continual process?

My end goal will be to process around 10 sheets of 4x5 a month, so i don't think chemical costs will be much of an issue, it'll be more a case of finding the best workflow for consistent results. I anyone has any tips towards this goal, fire away!

One thing i'm sure of is i want to do the processing myself, i'm just too impatient to sit on my hands waiting around for the postman!
 

Mr Bill

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I'm curious, when commercially replenishing, is it still the case that after (to pick a number out of the air) 6 months you still throw everything away and start anew, or is it really a never ending, continual process?

Hi, yes, it really is a never ending, continuous process. Or at least, it can be. Back in the day it would not have been unusual for a "system" to have been run continuously for 5 or 10 years, or longer. But it IS necessary to have enough processing volume for the particular "system" in use.

Fwiw we used to typically give our big lab machines a thorough strip down, cleaning, and overhaul once a year. The chemicals were temporarily removed for this. It might be that some lab owners would figure it's easier to just refill with new chemicals at that time. But it would be a personal choice, not out of necessity.

Something worth pointing out is that the sort of processing machines used for this sort of thing normally have built-in circulation systems with replaceable filters. Without such a thing buildup of sludge could be an issue.
 

halfaman

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The key part is the replenishment. Fuji Hunt states in their C-41 minilab specification that the weekly replenished quantity must be equal to at least a full tank. If that does not happen they can't guarantee a continuously replenished process. That requires to process rolls in the range of hundreds per week.
 
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