E-6 Blix-Fix part 2 deposits , help !

[lhalcong]

I bought a 1 ltr. E-6 Tetenal Kit from Freestyle a few months ago. I finally opened it tonight because I am ready to process my 12 rolls. But when I looked at the Blix-Fix Part 2 , (fixer) of the kit, it seemes to me like there is yellowish-greenish deposit on the bottom or around the bottle. This is my first time processing E-6 so I don't know if this is normal or I have a bad bottle of fixer. I hope the whole kit is not bad . How do I know this is good, or bad ? I am going to try attach pictures but I don't know if you can really tell by the pictures. I am worried that I wasted $80 if I cannot use this fixer ?

if it is in fact bad. ? what do I do ? can I do something about it to make this work correctly ? I do have C-41 fixer or even RA-4 fixer but now I am talking crazy.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

From the MSDS for part 2 this concentrate contains an acidified solution of ammonium thiosulfate. This potion of the blix is responsible for fixing the film. The yellow color is from sulfur deposition. The solution has gone bad and can no longer be used. Acid solutions of thiosulfates are unstable. When you purchase a kit of this type it should be done just before use. The longer the concentrate stands the greater chance of this problem occurring. Contact the seller to see if you can return the kit and get a fresh one. The kit should be stored in a cool but not cold place. Heat only hastens the decomposition.

 

[lhalcong]

Never imagined a few months would render the kit unusable. The kit was stored in a room at a constant 68F . Can I use any other way to fix the film ? so I can still use the kit , or have I lost the entire kit ? the other solution particularly the developer seem ok although I am not aware of the original color. they look pale amber.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The C41 fixer "might" work if you extend the time by 2x. IDK, as I never tried it, but the formulas are similar. You know, you can always reblix and refix these slides. You know that you also need the final rinse which does not come with some kits.

PE

 

[lhalcong]

Thank you PE. as I am fairly new on this. Do you recommend that I mix the two as in the Tetenal instructions. Or are you recommending to bleach first and then fix. ? and if so, times ? If you have any doubts that this may not work correctly. I rather waste $80 than lose 12 rolls to not correct process.

 

[Rudeofus]

You can not use the BX1 part as bleach. A BLIX, as supplied by Tetenal, oxidizes metallic Silver, then grabs the ionized Silver and binds it in a Thiosulfate complex. In Tetenal's kit BX1 supplies the oxidizer (Ammonium Ferric EDTA), BX2 contains the fixer component.

You have the following options:

1. Mix BX1 with 100 g/l Potassium Bromide (use Ammonium Bromide if you can get it) to make a bleach. If you get brown stains, you have to add concentrated Acetic Acid to lower its pH, this makes it more active. After bleaching wash thoroughly, then fix with a high performance fixer like TF-5 or C41 color fixer. You can use this bleach for many, many rolls (unlike BLIX). TF-5 and C-41 color fixer last a lot longer (in terms of shelf life) than BX2, but fixer life is limited to a few rolls per half liter.
2. Use BX1 and Rapid Fixer to make a BLIX by substituting Rapid Fixer concentrate for BX2. I have never tried this, but it should work. If you end up with brown stain (check for this after drying, look at medium gray image sections), BLIX again and for longer time. If it doesn't work, resort to method 1.

As mentioned by PhotoEngineer, BLIXing and bleaching are processes that run to completion and that can be redone over and over again. You don't risk your images if a first attempt gives you brown stain or other signs of incomplete silver removal. You can also do these at normal room light. I still recommend you do these tests quickly, because the ingredients for the Color Developer bath will be the next to go bad.

 

[lhalcong]

1. 2.- Use BX1 and Rapid Fixer to make a BLIX by substituting Rapid Fixer concentrate for BX2. I have never tried this, but it should work. If you end up with brown stain (check for this after drying, look at medium gray image sections), BLIX again and for longer time. If it doesn't work, resort to method 1.

.

Thank you Rudeofus, B&H will take 2-4 weeks to ship the potassium bromide. I guess let me look at option 2. here above. When you said use rapid fixer , are you talking about the Kodak Rapid Fixer for B&W film ? I don't have that handy , I have the regular Kodak B&W Fixer and C-41 fixer. So did you say that I am or I am not able to mix Kodak Flexicolor C-41 Fixer with part 1 of the Blix Tetenal BX1 . ?

 

[Photo Engineer]

It is advisable to use a 2 part bleach, wash, fix, but the bleach part must be suitable for such use. Some, as Rudeofus pointed out, need Potassium Bromide and/or a pH adjustment.

It is always best to do what the mfgr says in cases such as this. We are giving you workarounds in a bad situation.

PE

 

[Rudeofus]

Thank you Rudeofus, B&H will take 2-4 weeks to ship the potassium bromide.

You should look at Photo Formulary. They even have Ammonium Bromide, but it's quite pricey. There is no reason that it takes that long to ship KBr within the US. A well stocked pharmacy near you may also have it, that's where I got mine from when I started home brewing.

I guess let me look at option 2. here above. When you said use rapid fixer , are you talking about the Kodak Rapid Fixer for B&W film ? I don't have that handy , I have the regular Kodak B&W Fixer and C-41 fixer. So did you say that I am or I am not able to mix Kodak Flexicolor C-41 Fixer with part 1 of the Blix Tetenal BX1 . ?

If that "regular Kodak B&W Fixer" is some powder fixer, I would not use it. Flexicolor C-41 fixer, on the other hand, contains more than just Thiosulfate and Sulfite, and I have no idea whether you can safely mix Tetenal's BX1 with Ammonium Thiocyanate.

Also, Flexicolor C-41 fixer has pH 6.5, which is higher than typical Rapid Fixer operating at pH 5.5. Remember that Tetenal's BX2 is Thiosulfate and Acetic Acid, so the more acidic your substitute fixer, the closer it gets to the original. With its higher pH, however, Flexicolor C-41 fixer would work perfectly as color fixer if you make a bleach from BX1 + Potassium Bromide ...

 

[mklw1954]

You had it only a few months but you don't know how long the seller had it. I had this happen with Unicolor RA4 chemicals I had purchased from Photo Warehouse; the yellowish precipitate coated most of the interior wall of the bottle. I called Unicolor and they told me it was bad and sent me a fresh bottle.

I now use Kodak Ektacolor RA4 chemicals, which have expiration dates on them. Fortunately I'm able to pick them up at Unique Photo so I can check the dates before I buy them.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Thank you Rudeofus, B&H will take 2-4 weeks to ship the potassium bromide. I guess let me look at option 2. here above. When you said use rapid fixer , are you talking about the Kodak Rapid Fixer for B&W film ? I don't have that handy , I have the regular Kodak B&W Fixer and C-41 fixer. So did you say that I am or I am not able to mix Kodak Flexicolor C-41 Fixer with part 1 of the Blix Tetenal BX1 . ?

Replacing concentrate 2 with rapid fixer assumes that the two concentrate bottles are neatly formulated as stand-alone concentrates for bleach and for fixer. This is probably not the case. Remember that it is intended that the two parts be used to make a single baht, the blix. Chemical considerations may determine which chemicals appear in which concentrate. Without studying the two MSDS's you cannot make this assumption.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I agree with Jerry. I suggest again, using a bleach, wash, fix, wash, stab. This is provided the highly colored part of the "blix" will work alone. Some mfgrs bleach portion will not work alone. And the fix must not be a hardening or alkaline fixer. It must be in a pH range of 5 - 6.5.

PE

 

[lhalcong]

You can not use the BX1 part as bleach. A BLIX, as supplied by Tetenal, oxidizes metallic Silver, then grabs the ionized Silver and binds it in a Thiosulfate complex. In Tetenal's kit BX1 supplies the oxidizer (Ammonium Ferric EDTA), BX2 contains the fixer component.

You have the following options:

1. Mix BX1 with 100 g/l Potassium Bromide (use Ammonium Bromide if you can get it) to make a bleach. If you get brown stains, you have to add concentrated Acetic Acid to lower its pH, this makes it more active. After bleaching wash thoroughly, then fix with a high performance fixer like TF-5 or C41 color fixer. You can use this bleach for many, many rolls (unlike BLIX). TF-5 and C-41 color fixer last a lot longer (in terms of shelf life) than BX2, but fixer life is limited to a few rolls per half liter.
2. Use BX1 and Rapid Fixer to make a BLIX by substituting Rapid Fixer concentrate for BX2. I have never tried this, but it should work. If you end up with brown stain (check for this after drying, look at medium gray image sections), BLIX again and for longer time. If it doesn't work, resort to method 1.

As mentioned by PhotoEngineer, BLIXing and bleaching are processes that run to completion and that can be redone over and over again. You don't risk your images if a first attempt gives you brown stain or other signs of incomplete silver removal. You can also do these at normal room light. I still recommend you do these tests quickly, because the ingredients for the Color Developer bath will be the next to go bad.

I know its been a little while since I got this recommendation , but I finally did this test development with a roll of velvia 50 that was super fresh .
unfortunately it did not work. the entire roll is almost practically all black. it does however show the slightest hint of an image in each frame. it is currently drying up but I can tell that something did not go right. I developed E-6 before successfully so my process was as it was supposed to be, with the exception of above. I did bleach with formula above for 6min and fixed with C-41 Kodak Flexicolor fixer for 10min.
what could have happened ?

 

[lhalcong]

if this clue helps in anyway to determine what happened. there are images on the base side of the film. I can see them on the opaque side, but the emulsion side (shinny side) is absolute dark and I cannot see through the film. In my very limited knowledge , does this mean the film was not cleared during the bleach and fixing process.... ???

 

[ME Super]

Sounds like your bleach didn't work. After the First Developer and Reversal/Color Developer steps, all of the silver in the film has been developed, and a positive dye image has been formed in the Reversal/Color Developer step. Do you have yellow edge markings on the roll? If not, then your bleach didn't work. If so, then you didn't expose the film.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The film needs Bleach, wash, Fix, wash, Stab (formalin type). And the bleach and fix should be genuine Kodak or Fuji design type.

PE

 

[lhalcong]

Not yellow markings on the edges Whatsoever. I definitely exposed the film I can see the images on the base side and they are in color. So conclusion the bleach as in the formula given did not work.

Can I still salvage the roll ? Or is it pretty much ruined ?

 

[Rudeofus]

You can rebleach and refix as often as you want, and your pics will be fine when your bleach finally succeeds. Could you please tell us, what bleach formula you used and how you used it?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Not yellow markings on the edges Whatsoever. I definitely exposed the film I can see the images on the base side and they are in color. So conclusion the bleach as in the formula given did not work.

Can I still salvage the roll ? Or is it pretty much ruined ?

See my post right above yours quoted here!

PE

 

[lhalcong]

You can rebleach and refix as often as you want, and your pics will be fine when your bleach finally succeeds. Could you please tell us, what bleach formula you used and how you used it?

Rudeofus. I used the formula you gave me. Tetenal BX1 with 100g of potassium bromide. I dissolved the 100 g of PB in 200ml of warm water then added it to BX1 and then completed with water to 1 litter. I used distilled water. I blixed for 6min Then fixed on the next step for 10min using Kodak Flexicolor C-41.

Note te that I bought the PB from the link at photographer formulary.

 

[Rudeofus]

You may have to add Acetic Acid to your bleach to make it active, chances are that your pH is too high. Since I don't expect you to own a pH meter, and since measuring bleach pH with indicator paper is difficult, allow me to give you a procedure that will work with simple compounds that you can source from pretty much anywhere. What you need is Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda, but not baking powder!) and Acetic Acid. The more concentrated your Acetic Acid is, the better: 30% is good, 80% is better, so you don't dilute your bleach too much.

The procedure goes as follows:

1. Add 10 ml Acetic Acid 80% (or 25 ml Acetic Acid 30%) to your liter batch of bleach, stir well
2. Take 10 ml (or 25ml if you added Acetic Acid 30%) of this new bleach into a small beaker, and drip in some baking soda.
3. If it fizzles and bubbles, you are done, otherwise proceed with step 1.

This method works because Sodium Bicarbonate releases Carbon Dioxide at pH below 6, which is where your bleach should operate, and this Carbon Dioxide release is what you see when it fizzles and bubbles.

PS: You did bleach at 38°C/100°F, yes?

 

[lhalcong]

You may have to add Acetic Acid to your bleach to make it active, chances are that your pH is too high. Since I don't expect you to own a pH meter, and since measuring bleach pH with indicator paper is difficult, allow me to give you a procedure that will work with simple compounds that you can source from pretty much anywhere. What you need is Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda, but not baking powder!) and Acetic Acid. The more concentrated your Acetic Acid is, the better: 30% is good, 80% is better, so you don't dilute your bleach too much.

The procedure goes as follows:

1. Add 10 ml Acetic Acid 80% (or 25 ml Acetic Acid 30%) to your liter batch of bleach, stir well
2. Take 10 ml (or 25ml if you added Acetic Acid 30%) of this new bleach into a small beaker, and drip in some baking soda.
3. If it fizzles and bubbles, you are done, otherwise proceed with step 1.

This method works because Sodium Bicarbonate releases Carbon Dioxide at pH below 6, which is where your bleach should operate, and this Carbon Dioxide release is what you see when it fizzles and bubbles.

PS: You did bleach at 38°C/100°F, yes?

yes, all steps were performed at specs. exact 100F including the washing steps in between.

thank you Rudeofus, no wonder you have no time to take pictures... LOL. after this I will now feel like a chemist instead of a photographer... but in a good way.. thank you , I will give this a try.
now a couple of follow-up questions;

- The only Acetic Acid I can think of that I have it's the stop bath from Kodak , you know that intense yellow-red concentrate substance . will I use that right ?
- The fact that the film is now sitting in a plastic bag but under the Room's light, does that not spoil the pictures ? in other words, since the Bleach and Fix steps did not work at all, no damage caused now that the film is out of the tank ?

 

[Rudeofus]

The only Acetic Acid I can think of that I have it's the stop bath from Kodak , you know that intense yellow-red concentrate substance . will I use that right ?

Sounds good. Acetic Acid is colorless, the color you see is indicator which shouldn't hurt. As far as my procedure is concerned, you can treat it like 80% Acetic Acid.

The fact that the film is now sitting in a plastic bag but under the Room's light, does that not spoil the pictures ? in other words, since the Bleach and Fix steps did not work at all, no damage caused now that the film is out of the tank ?

That black stuff you see on your slides is silver, the same kind of silver that forms the final image on B&W negatives. You will agree that B&W negatives are not adversely affected by room light and plastic bags. In order to reveal the dye image (this is what forms the image in your color slides), you need to remove the silver entirely, and the combination of bleach and fixer will do this for you, assuming you get their formulations right.

PS: in case you are worried that you will turn into a chemist: my foray into home brewing started with a cloudy bottle of Tetenal BX2 three years ago

 

[lhalcong]

PS: in case you are worried that you will turn into a chemist: my foray into home brewing started with a cloudy bottle of Tetenal BX2 three years ago

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH... that's funny. ok but I refuse to let this happen. I barely have time to take the pictures that I then develop in my home bathroom after fighting with the wife to let me use it and then clean it back !

 

[lhalcong]

THAT WORKED !!! Amazing. It cleared the film and I got my images. I am so happy. This forum rocks. Thank you Rudeofus and thank you all. The film is drying now. I will report back once I start scanning the images to see how well they came out.