Dye Transfer Labs

[DREW WILEY]

Well this is inevitably part of the ongoing debate, Ron. The Germans claim their dye sets test out better than the Kodak dyes. But the primary
dyes in the Kodak sets are easily identified by the CAS #'s and are still in manufacture by reputable sources. Of course, back when DT printing was popular people used all kinds of things as long as they'd mordant, and Kodak was not the only major player. It's kinda academic to me. I'm not a dye chemist and will listen to the debate from the sidelines. Meanwhile, I've got enough actual Kodak branded dye and buffer sets on hand to last me the duration of my own tinkering.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I believe that Guy Stricherz is the other remaining commercial dye printing service in this country, though it's likely he only works on one big
project at a time. But if one glances at what Egbert and Bettina are doing in Germany it's pretty impressive - they've got a helluva mechanized roller right on the homepage. Yet as I understood it, they had to buy six laser rigs and backup computers just so they'd have spare parts and can keep running in the future. That's the problem with going hybrid - you're still at risk for software and hardware going rapidly obsolete, with no reliable service option. Everything was a massive investment. But scanning does allow capture and inversion of negative images, so they don't need a separate pan matrix film. For immobile still life or studio work, I think direct tricolor capture on black and white film gives the best results anyway.

 

[marfa.tx]

Lots of great info here! My next question is how many prints those matrix films good for?

the Kodak mat could be used for an edition of several hundred prints. It is an assembly process, so the skill of the hand is a major element in a DT.
my job interview I was shown several 4x5 transparencies --- same subject, different exposures. I had to pick ONE and make 25 prints.
this was in the morning, they expected completed work by end of business --- welcome to the good ole dyes.

in order to mass produce prints (some jobs called for 500 prints from one chrome) we would gang roll mats made in 4 sets...
a typical order for prints was never less than 5 and often was for 25 prints from each.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Reviving an old thread I guess. Might discuss it with you later in person. But what I'm trying to do is a little different, and more of a modernized
tweak on the earlier wash-off relief method. I have solid reason for that option, and the visual results seems similar. Have no idea if the mats
will hold up as well or not. But that's academic, cause I'd go insane printing more than a few prints of the same subject. I'm not a "limited edition" type. I am also working with the Efke matrix film, not Kodak. It has a few dust contamination issues, just like most of the film they
made prior to shutting down. Somebody else made the film currently being used in Germany, which apparently is not for sale to the public.
But from what I've seen, when large numbers of prints were made with a mat, the risk got higher of image degredation from little bits of gelatin or whatever. Makes sense. It would be hard to do volume anyway unless it was an assembly line operation, though modern hybrid
methodology can simplify certain preliminary steps. I choose to rethink those analog too. Now all I need to do is retire, and MAYBE have some
time left over to do this kind of printing!

 

[falotico]

Just last night I attended a private screening of a Technicolor dye transfer (DT) print in 16 mm of a British film "Elizabeth of Ladymead" starring Anna Neagle. The print was over sixty years old, yet the colors were perfect. When the film was made in 1948 Technicolor maintained a DT processing plant in Great Britain which released 16 mm prints of commercial films for private buyers, clubs, churches and other organizations. Technicolor DT still sets the standard for color cinema. In general a Technicolor print is the only DT that most people will ever see.

The Technicolor DT process is largely the work of Dr. Leonard T. Troland who designed the automated machine. Presumably he chose the first dyes and mordants. Dyes could be mixed to obtain specific color effects. This provided tremendous latitude in post production to manipulate the final look of the film. Throughout its career Technicolor changed many of its dyes and recipes, although I think it always used chrome alum as its mordant. Apparently there are no records of the dyes used on any particular film or of the mixture recipes. Technicolor is famous for having the most stable dyes in color cinema. During the manufacture the longer the release print was left in contact with the dye-matrix, the more saturated that color would become. This led to the term "color timing" which is still in use.

Eastman Kodak (EK) DT was largely the invention of Louis Condax and is used only for still pictures. He used a radioactive metal, thorium, as a mordant which is one of the few mordants which is efficient for acid dyes. He also has a patent for two layers of gelatin, the bottom layer being more adsorbent than the top layer. As a result leaving the dye-matrix in contact with the print longer does not cause over-saturation of the color. As far as I know no one manufactures the photographic materials anymore.

I would love to find out which mordants are used by the labs that have been mentioned. Does anybody know?

 

[DREW WILEY]

There a big difference. With Technicolor the dyes need to be stable for extremely short times of exposure to very strong light. But with a dye
transfer print, the ideal is to be tolerant over long periods to moderate display light. Otherwise dyes could be chosen relative to specific color
problems as well as mordanting characteristics. It get very involved, though consumer oriented products like those furnished in kits by Kodak
tried to find a reasonable middle ground of application, retouchability, lightfastness, etc. There are all kinds of potential mordants. The simplest is still aluminum-based. Yes, materials are still being made, at least for dye transfer printing, but is not being sold to the public. Last I heard, Chinese interests bought up all the old Technicolor cameras along with many drums of dyes, and it's still in storage somewhere in Asia, maybe never to be seen in use again. Newer is not always better.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I believe that there is a considerable collection of Technicolor dyes at George Eastman House.

PE

 

[DREW WILEY]

There are still a lot of "secret" things out there. Guess they could always be analyzed if someone really wanted to know. It's a fun subject.
I'll be content just to have enough retirement time to use up my allotment of Kodak and Pylam dyes. Don't think I want to carry around a
Technicolor camera myself - not unless I rent an elephant. An 8x10 still camera is heavy enough.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

I believe that there is a considerable collection of Technicolor dyes at George Eastman House.

PE

Yup

 

[cmacd123]

The three strip technicolour cameras were only used for a brief time, once Kodachrome was available, Technicolour made a deal to have it perforated for Motion Picture use, and sold exclusively through technicolour for that purpose. The three strips were then made in the lab off the technicolour Kodachrome original. I guess they used a Kodachrome dupe material to provide work-prints, or maybe just B&W reversal.

Eventually Eastman color Negative was used in Camera.

 

[marfa.tx]

... .... I am also working with the Efke matrix film, not Kodak. It has a few dust contamination issues, just like most of the film they
made prior to shutting down. ...

sounds like you ought to trash this junk. recycle for silver... move on, rather than waste time building to an inferior mat ...

 

[falotico]

Technicolor cameras

The three strip technicolour cameras were only used for a brief time, once Kodachrome was available, Technicolour made a deal to have it perforated for Motion Picture use, and sold exclusively through technicolour for that purpose. The three strips were then made in the lab off the technicolour Kodachrome original. I guess they used a Kodachrome dupe material to provide work-prints, or maybe just B&W reversal.

Eventually Eastman color Negative was used in Camera.

Don't know where you're getting your information, but if somebody put a gun to my head I'd have to say that it is largely inaccurate. The first three-strip Technicolor camera was built in 1934 by a machinist named William Young who worked for the company. It filmed the first 3 color Technicolor short, "La Cucaracha". The first 3 color feature "Becky Sharp" was released in 1935, the same year that Kodachrome 16mm was put on the market. When "Gone With the Wind" was filmed in 1939 there were only seven Technicolor three-strip cameras on planet earth. Eventually there would be around forty of the cameras. One was used in Great Britain to film Olivier's "Henry the Fifth" and his "Richard the III", among other films. That camera is now on display in the Museum of the Moving Image in Queens, NY. One of the "Gone With the Wind" cameras is on display at the Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood, CA. I have not seen any other surviving cameras. All had Zeiss lenses which were custom designed to provide a longer focal length which allowed for more room to fit the three-strip mechanism.

There could be others, but I am aware of only two Technicolor films which used Kodachrome as a source for the original color image: John Ford's "The Battle of Midway", (1942); and Louis Hayward's "The Marines at Tarawa", (1944). Both films were documentaries which used color footage actually shot during the battles. Only Kodachrome 16 had a camera small enough to allow combat filming. I assume that separation negs were made of the Kodachrome original and the dye-transfer matrices were made from these.

As I recall a film, "King Solomon's Mines" (1950), first used color sequences shot on a monopack in-camera negative. Most of the film was shot with three-strip cameras, but some of the live action footage used a newly invented chromogenic monopack film--this might have been based on Kodachrome. Technicolor might have entered into an exclusive dealing contract with Kodak for this product. Anybody know?

Technicolor's three-strip cameras were not used after 1951. Dr. Hanson's incorporated masks had been perfected by Kodak and this invention allowed camera color negatives which could produce commercial quality release prints. Technicolor labs still produced three color dye-transfer release prints using these negatives up until the 1970s, or thereabouts. I think Kodak waited for the Schinzel patent on monopacks to run out before they introduced their monopack product in 1951.

I am amazed that George Eastman House has preserved some of the Technicolor dyes. My recollection was that Technicolor relied on dyes available commercially. Friedman points out that Technicolor would purify its dye solution by mixing in a raw egg white. The coagulate was then filtered out taking with it heavy metal and other contaminants. They could have custom designed their dyes at a later date. I plan to visit the George Eastman House and will make it a point to ask after the Technicolor dyes.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Let us know when you plan to visit. Perhaps we can help, or at least have lunch.

They have an amazing collection, but an appointment is needed to see some of the collection which is not on display.

PE

 

[Prof_Pixel]

I am amazed that George Eastman House has preserved some of the Technicolor dyes.

They were donated by Technicolor and it's quite a large collection. They are working on trying to get it cataloged.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

They are working on trying to get it cataloged

And you would need to wait another 50 year to bill gates die and his wife donates money to eastman and they would hide everything for another 90 years because of copyright rules. And dyes would turn to dust and digital invents everything in better way. This is what eastman house is.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Umut, unless you visit GEH, you have no idea what it is or what it has!

PE

 

[Prof_Pixel]

From a two year old email I received: "A few years ago we received in excess of 3000 sample bottles of dyes from the estate of the former Technical Director of Technicolor, John M. Andreas. I believe he worked for the company predominantly in the 1940s and 50s. ..... We have Andreas's full index card system listing all the dyes, manufacturers and dates with a serial number relating to each bottle."

 

[DREW WILEY]

Technicolor was not Kodachrome. Yes, a dye imbition release print could be made from any color media. But what gave classic Technicolor its
amazing color performance was that it was essentially a registered three-film technique using sharp color separation filters rather than integral tripack film. Three-shot still film cameras were already around, so there was a precedent. But it's easy enough to read about these things on
all kinds of dedicated websites. When it came to dyes, one luxury is that the dye set could be matched to the intended studio decor and costumes, makeup,etc ... or visa versa. I happen to hate typical musicals, but form a visual standpoint alone, a couple I find fascinating and
superbly done with respect to what I just described : compare the color suite in West Side Story from that in Guys N' Dolls. Utterly different
dye set. These people really knew what they were doing, and probably had some secrets to go along with it.

 

[falotico]

This is the first I have heard of the John M. Andreas collection of Technicolor dyes. I found a press release about the donation on the internet at Dead Link Removed but this doesn't mention the dyes. Sometime in late autumn I might be able to visit the George Eastman House (GEH) and I PROMISE that I will arrange an appointment and schedule things so that it is convenient for all the people involved. Thank you PE and all the folks at GEH. It is a valuable opportunity.

From reading the patents, (US 1900140 for example), Technicolor started off buying off-the-shelf dyes which were often manufactured in Germany. But dye transfer allowed the company a wide variety of dyes and mixes which gave it perhaps the finest palette in color cinema. I have always wondered if they ever experimented with fluorescent dyes. I might find an answer in the Andreas collection!

I don't ever disparage EK. I think the company manufactures the finest photographic film in the world. It is amazing how many of the early color processes relied on using EK film in their invention. Technicolor applied their dyes to EK black and white release prints. The sound track was a silver variable density--essentially the same as for a black and white film. So Technicolor basically modified a Kodak product. To anybody who has a 35mm or 16mm release print, I recommend that you hold on to them. These film prints could go up in value, even to the level of a print by Picasso. Just a hunch; don't hold me to it.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Sometime in late autumn I might be able to visit the George Eastman House (GEH) and I PROMISE that I will arrange an appointment and schedule things so that it is convenient for all the people involved. Thank you PE and all the folks at GEH. It is a valuable opportunity.

When you get ready to come to Rochester and visit the GEH, let me know and I'll put you in touch with the GEH person working with the dyes.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Hundreds of possible dyes were probably experimented with over the years before more or less standardized sets were chosen as purchased in volume. How much of this was hard science and how much sheet trial and error is hard to say. But dye transfer still printing was analogous. Whatever worked, worked. By why is a different question, and a lot depended upon priorites. Maybe the best looking dye set won't be sufficiently lightfast, for example, or won't easily retouch. When dye transfer was routine for advertising images, permanence was not the overriding issue. And of course, any given dye has to properly transfer. The receiver paper is a bigger problem. Hand-mordanted papers like the old M1 formula only worked well if used soon after treatment. What Kodak and certain others successfully developed is a more complex paper which could be treated, packaged, then sold and used even many years, even decades, later. This required not only special
ingredients like thorium nitrate, but a special way of incorporating it into the paper.

 

[cmacd123]

Don't know where you're getting your information, but if somebody put a gun to my head I'd have to say that it is largely inaccurate. T

There could be others, but I am aware of only two Technicolor films which used Kodachrome as a source for the original color image: John Ford's "The Battle of Midway", (1942); and Louis Hayward's "The Marines at Tarawa", (1944). Both films were documentaries which used color footage actually shot during the battles. Only Kodachrome 16 had a camera small enough to allow combat filming. I assume that separation negs were made of the Kodachrome original and the dye-transfer matrices were made from these.

As I recall a film, "King Solomon's Mines" (1950), first used color sequences shot on a monopack in-camera negative. Most of the film was shot with three-strip cameras, but some of the live action footage used a newly invented chromogenic monopack film--this might have been based on Kodachrome. Technicolor might have entered into an exclusive dealing contract with Kodak for this product. Anybody know?.

Perhaps this is what I was thinking of, I no longer remember the exact source. Kodachrome was Only sold for Movie use in 16 and smaller gauges as Technicolor had the exclusive rights to use it for 35mm and larger Movie Camera Original use. The use of Kodachrome (Kodachrome Commercial, the low contrast version actually) wold have still resulted in the same Dye transfer prints from three strips of B&W intermediate.

I would guess that the print stock was a Kodak B&W print with perhaps some modification for the needs of the technicolour process, with the sound track being a B&W image. (sound heads at the time needed a silver or Silver Sulfide track as the head was sensitive in the infrared part of the spectrum.

Once the Eastman colour Negative came out, it would have been MUCH easier to use as the negative has Much more latitude than any reversal process. If think even the first colour negative was faster than Kodachrome commercial, Probably 25ASA vs 10ASA.

 

[falotico]

It is quite possible that Technicolor had exclusive rights to Kodachrome 35mm motion picture film. I do remember that the outdoor scenes in "King Solomon's Mines" were clearly of a different quality than the three-strip stuff. You can tell even from a television showing of the film. It could be that they were using a reversal film-stock and that would provide less latitude, poorer dye spectrums, etc. Technicolor might also have had the patent rights to monopack motion picture film and stopped anybody else from using monopack in order to maintain the market for their own process.

Dr. Wesley Hanson of the Kodak Research Lab said that a monopack feature film was produced sometime in the late 40's or early 50's which documented the visit of the Royal Family to Canada. His remarks appear on a video which is available online at http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/index.php/Wesley_T._Hanson (I don't recollect the film stock he was talking about in his interview).

It is very exciting to hear that GEH has preserved an archive of Technicolor dye work product. I will contact Prof Pixel as soon as I can arrange a visit. Technicolor DT still generates considerable enthusiasm, although the Kodak DT product for still prints was in most ways superior. Technicolor is better than the earlier EK Wash Off Relief process, IMHO.

 

[marfa.tx]

When you get ready to come to Rochester and visit the GEH, let me know and I'll put you in touch with the GEH person working with the dyes.

I expect to be in Rochester mid sept, at vsw, then on to Syracuse...
a visit to geh for a day could certainly fit into my schedule

 

[msage]

I don't know where you are but if you are close to the Washington state I have a friend I believe is still doing DT. If you want you can pm me.