Dye-Imbibition (dye-transfer) & Carbon printing

[holmburgers]

You could never be faulted for that PE, but not everyone I've encountered is so forthcoming with assistance, or so it seemed to me at the time I guess.

 

[holmburgers]

SO I received a reply from the eBay seller with all the carbon materials. Indeed it was Robert Greene's material, left to this seller by his widow. He says that there are 2 or 3 institutions actively seeking funding to purchase the materials.

Also, he says he's a dye-transfer printer.

 

[mdm]

I got mine from Modern Carbon Printing. I have used the colours recomended, to pour CMYK tissues which I have not printed yet, and just to mix coloured glop and to tint my black glop. Cant recommend paint tints enough, very easy and fun to work with. I am about to post a blue-green print made with cyan and yellow and have used magenta to get a mahogany tint, probably needs a touch of yellow too, but I have not printed it yet. They are easier to disperse than watercolour pigments even. Another option may be mixol or caltint. I have used mixol and its super nice but I am not shure if they have process colours.

dry pigment=massive headache and wasted glop or LOTS of patience.

David

 

[holmburgers]

I've never heard of mixol or caltint, but they look like they would work if you can find the right colors. I haven't found any literature that divulges the pigments used, but I haven't looked real hard yet.

The 1 pint pigment samples I got (for free) from Lansco Colors are dry powders and although I haven' t used them, they seem like they'd disperse OK. But, that is yet to be seen I guess.

 

[holmburgers]

Just wanted to point out this awesome PDF outlining the history of color processes. -> http://www.iml.unibas.ch/SKRIPTEN/ScriptColor/color_photography_history.pdf

 

[mdm]

Thanks for that.

David

 

[holmburgers]

http://sechtl-vosecek.ucw.cz/slides2.pdf

Another very cool PDF that I stumbled upon. Shows many old color prints; Duxochrom (duxochrome), Pinatypie (pinatype), Carbro, prints from Autochromes, Agfacolor, 3-color gravure, and so on.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Good to see some continued interest in this topic. You've also got Sandy King's forum on carbon printing,
though most of the info there concentrates on monochrome. What I find so surpising, however, is the
sheer traditionalism inhent to the mindset, and how folks will scrounge around for old materials. The fact
is, much better potential process pigments are available today than back in the Golden Age of color
carbon and carbro. I have a very good idea of how to go about this, but alas, am working with just too
many media at the moment, and these experiments will have to await my retirement from my day job
(not terribly far off, thank goodness).

 

[holmburgers]

I'm very interested in what you have in mind Drew, if you're willing to share of course.

As for the traditionalism, I adhere to a certain degree of it for 2 reasons.

1st is that the traditional processes are very simple; chemically & in concept. They are within the reach of any hobbyist with a home darkroom.

2nd is double sided and relates to history. On one hand I think it's important to understand how people used to make color prints and to keep the knowledge and processes alive, if for no other reason than a type of living history.

The other side of the coin is a concept that I'm quite interested in and trying to formalize/crystallize. It's the idea that we understand the past better if we can see ourselves through the same lens (mentioning the pun seems unncessary...haha). What I mean is, the bias with which people view old photographs. It's hard to look at an orthochromatic landscape photograph and not think that the earth looked drab, washed out, so dry, etc. But the reality is that the world looked just as beautiful, vivid and full of life as it does now... probably more so! Old autochromes give us a glimpse of this.

So, by seeing a photograph of you, or your friends, or some crazy modern buildling through the same process that was used 100+ years ago, it allows us to make a mental link to the reality of the recording medium. A good example is the daguerreotype of Obama's inauguration by Jerry Spagnoli.

It gives the old photograph more credit; the kind of respect they deserve. It reminds you that your grandma was probably a wild child in her day, and that your great grandpa probably had a great sense of humour when he wasn't sitting still for a 10 second exposure. It's the same exact thing with old recordings. Bix Beiderbecke or early Louis Armstrong recordings.... if we could hear those today in modern fidelity we'd be blown away by the originality, the spunk and excitement that those recordings hide within their scratchy grooves.

Anyways, I'm interested in the history of the processes but not one iota in reproducing an old look for that sake alone. If I ever put a fruit basket on a wooden table and try to make it look like a Carvaggio, please send me a letter of anthrax...

hahah, ok, back to work...

 

[richsul]

There was 3 color carbon and still is by some workers making their own. Then there was color carbro which was basically Dick McGraw's invention. US Patent NO 2,626,858 I had the rare privilege of having coffee with Dick in his office at McGraw Colorgraph in Burbank Ca, around 1973. I was 33 then, he was probably in his 80's. I shook hands with Elvis once but this memory is far more exciting now, than the Elvis was. At the time I had no idea who he was. (I did know who Elvis was however.) I had gone to the Colorgraph factory looking for "Carbon Tissue" while at the time they only made gravure tissue. The front office staff thought I should talk to Mr. McGraw.

The McGraw Colorgraph archives are at the Center for Creative Photography in Tucson. I spent two days digging through them looking for secrets to making tissue. The archives are not indexed in any way. Just box after box that were apparently dumped from file drawers. I was apparently the first person in 20 years to want to have a look at them.

Carbro is a color carbon process, but traditionally color carbon is not Carbro. Todays carbro printers use carbon tissue, McGraw did make special tissue fine tuned for the bromide curve the Carbro process had. As for what is meant by "They still make pigments for this." is a bit mysterious.

 

[CMB]

Then there was color carbro which was basically Dick McGraw's invention. US Patent NO 2,626,858

Dick McGraw would be surprised and amused to learn that he was being credited with inventing the color carbro process. The honor of "inventor" of the carbro process is usually given to Harold Farmer whose modification of Manly's Ozochrome process (1905) resulted in an image-wise hardening of carbon tissue when placed in contact with a exposed and developed silver emulsion. This was "enormously" important because it enabled a photographer to make large pigment prints without the need of making large duplicate negatives as was necessary with the carbon process. A further improved version of the process was called "Carbro" in 1919 by the Autotype Company of West Ealing, (owner of the British rights to Joseph Swann's patent for making Carbon Tissue) to signify that carbon tissue was used in conjunction with a silver bromide paper print (car/bro). Color carbon tissues soon followed, and in 1929, Color Photographers Ltd, under the direction of D.A. Spencer, began commercial production of Vivex Tricolor Carbro prints using Autotype tissues.

The history of the color carbro process in America begins a few years later with Barker Devin and his tricolor cameras. An engineer and entrepreneur, Devin designed and manufactured what are considered to be be the finest of the "one-shot" cameras - able to make three color separation negatives in a single exposure. Determined to prove that complaints of poor color quality were not the fault of his cameras but were due to the imported Autotype pigment films, Devin developed and began manufacturing CMY color carbon pigment films in Burbank Californa under the name Devin Colorgraph. By 1940, Devin had convinced Dick McGraw (the son of financier and McGraw-Edison owner, Max McGraw) to invest in the company which was renamed Devin-McGraw Colorgraph. Devin had left the company by 1944 when it was now simply McGraw Colorgraph. with Plant Manager Larry Plotin and chemist Werner Alexewicz responsible for the formulation and manufacture of carbon tissues. A few years later, Harry Baskerville, a photographer and instructor at the Art Institute, joined the staff. Together, they developed and refined the materials, processing procedures and photographic techniques that resulted in the famous carbros of Murray, Outerbridge, Hesse and others. Dick McGraw, a businessman who loved photography, had little hands-on involvement with the technical aspects of the process. He did not invent the stripping film/registration techniques described in patent 2,626,858 - he was the owner of the company in 1945 when Larry Plotin first envisioned them. When McGraw Colorgraph was sold to Carnation in 1953, its day-to-day management was taken over by Reid Braithwaithe, a Carnation Vice-President. Dick McGraw 's involvement with the company after that point was mostly ceremonial.

 

[RedGreenBlue]

CMB,

I've been looking for biographical information on Barker Devin. Do you have suggestions for reading material? Keppler wrote a brief description of Devin's life in The Eighth Art and the paragraph that you wrote here is chock full of the sort of information that I am looking for.

Also, do you know anything about The Color Photography Supply Co. of New York? Their name appears on a Devin Tri-Color camera nameplate in place of the typical Devin Colorgraph Company or Devin McGraw names.

Scott

 

[CMB]

Barker Devin

Except for Keppler, little has been written about Barker Devin - creator of remarkable one shot cameras and the " Colorgraph" tricolor pigment tissues. It is most heartening to learn that someone is now on his trail.

Barker Devin was here in Santa Cruz County, CA for a short time in the mid 1950's. After whatever money he made when McGraw was sold to Carnation was gone, he drove up from LA and appeared at the door of Derrick Lane, a rancher (and photographic hobbyist) who lived in the San Lorenzo Valley. (Oh, did I mention the hollywood-starlet type that accompanied him and the fancy convertible which were both soon gone?) It seems that Derrick had purchased a Devin 5x7" camera (now proudly in my possession) and kept calling McGraw in Burbank with desperate requests for instruction and assistance. So a deal was made - in exchange for room and board, Devin would teach Derrick how to make carbro prints (I have two tricolor carbro prints that Barker Devin made with Derrick Lane during this period of time - one is signed by Edward Steichen). Devin also encouraged Derrick to invest in the expansion/remodeling of the Capitola Venetian Court (now known as the Capitola Venetian Hotel) with Devin as the architect. When that project went south, Devin took the bus north to San Francisco (gotta love the guy) and disappeared.

Jack Ward, an early carbro printer who worked with Manners (who was Devin's "mentor") and knew Devin, operated a number of photography businesses in New York. Jack Ward Color Services still exists (albeit recently renamed Jack Ward Digital) and may well have once been the Color Photography Supply Company that sold and repaired Devin cameras on the east coast.

Please share what you have learned aboutt this remarkable figure in the history of color photography.

 

[RedGreenBlue]

I would be only too happy to share what I've learned about Barker Devin but that will have to wait. I've only begun trying to learn more than what Keppler revealed. I'm quite impressed by your knowledge. I'll certainly report back as I (hopefully) uncover new information.

I think that's really something that you have two Devin carbro prints!

The camera with the Color Photography Supply Co. label is one that I've arranged to buy. It is a 5x7 bi-pack. I own Devin 5x7 and 6.5 x 9 models. They're all are two-reflector cameras. I have a good amount of Devin literature and period catalogs that list the Devins, but none mention a Devin bi-pack. I am looking forward to receiving it and looking it over. Actually, I am very excited. I had no idea that Devin made a bi-pack model.

 

[holmburgers]

McGraw did make special tissue fine tuned for the bromide curve the Carbro process had. As for what is meant by "They still make pigments for this." is a bit mysterious.

You must be referring to this quote...

The color carbon was once called Carbro. They still make color pigments for this.

PE

I think Ron later admitted that this statement was somewhat misleading or incorrect. I've never seen any place that sells color tissues or "glop", though it's possible that Photoformulary has some. They have lots of stuff that's not on their website (frustratingly!)

The pigments however are still being made, and it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to find the right composition of tissue material to work well with a bromide paper's curve.

As for the intervening discussion... WOW! What a wealth of knowledge and information that was shared.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I checked with the Formulary. They have the dyes to make colored glop. They use that internally for carbon printing classes, but do not sell it. They buy it as needed for workshops. When I was there they had several types including R/G/B/C/M/Y and Black. They will not sell it nor order it, but might be willing to direct you on to their source.

The pigments I saw were in 1/2 L or 1L (IDK which now) and each contained a thick suspension of the pigments in a medium suitable for use with carbon. I was with Sandy King at that time, and we were coating some of his black glop and showing me his method.

I'm sorry for the error stating that the Formulary carried these pigments.

PE

 

[Sally Devin]

Dear Scott,

I am very new to this blog, but I am responding to your inquiry about The Color Photography Supply Co of New York. First of all, I want to express my extreme gratitude to Charles Berger for documenting what my father had told me decades ago about his Uncle Barker. I had been searching documentation of Uncle Barker's pioneering of color photography in southern California for many decades, but I had been unable to find anything. I did search through Google in 2007 and found a reference to a woman who left her employment with Barker Devin at The Color Photography Supply Co of New York to work in the early development of the computer. Since Google is now flooded with references of related names, I am unable to find my 2007 Google source. I believe her name was Margaret, however. I will continue looking and contact you again. A cousin of my Dad told me that Barker had something to do with the early development of the computer, but that may have been a reference to the woman who worked for him. It seems that when Barker left New York, he went to France to live for many years, and eventually died in Bern, Switzerland in 1976. I did not know that there were any "Barker cameras" in existence, and I would be interested in knowing whether I should be looking for something like this in France. I am leaving Germany soon, but I will be returning in May. I would need some guidance, at least a picture, of what a Devin Tri-Color camera looks like before scouring antique shops in Paris, for example. Thanks!

 

[wildbillbugman]

Hello Ms Devin,
I happen to won two 5x7 Devin Tri-color cameras. They are two different models with slightly different in designe. I will try to take a few pictures of borh, at least the outside. This will take several days as I do not own a digital camera.
You can go to Yahoo Groups and go to Dye Transfer. There are a few pictures there.
Bill

 

[RedGreenBlue]

Hi Sally,

Here are photos of two of my 5x7 Devin Tricolor cameras:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/histo...de=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&count=20&dir=asc

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/histo...de=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&count=20&dir=asc

If the links don't work, you can got to the History of Color Photography Yahoo group:

Dead Link Removed

And then click on Photos, then click on the Color Separation Cameras album. The 2 Devin cameras are on the second page of thumbnails.

You'll find the smaller 6.5x9cm Devin Tricolor camera on my website at: http:/www.vintagephoto.tv/color1.shtml

The Devin bipack camera that I inquired about can be seen at: http://www.vintagephoto.tv/temp/devin_bipack.jpg

And the bipack camera's Color Photography Supply Company label is at: http://www.vintagephoto.tv/temp/bipack_label.jpg

Are you familiar with Victor Keppler's book The Eighth Art? Keppler wrote a brief biography of Barker Devin. Unfortunately the book dates to 1938 so it only deals with his early years.

Hopefully these photos will give you some idea of what you'll be looking for.

Thank you for your intriguing reply to my post. Good luck with your research. I would love to hear about your progress. If I can help in an way don't hesitate to ask. The computer connection is quite a surprise. I'll see if I can learn anything about that.

best wishes,
Scott

 

[mark]

Hey RGB can't get to any of those yahoo links. Members only I guess.

 

[RedGreenBlue]

Hi Mark,

That was rude of me! I'm the moderator but I couldn't recall whether or not the photos were restricted to non-members. Seems so. I copied the photos to my site. Here they are:

http://www.vintagephoto.tv/temp/devin5x7.jpg

http://www.vintagephoto.tv/temp/late_devin5x7.jpg

These shots were taken by the previous owners.

best wishes,
Scott

 

[Photo Engineer]

Scott;

I am not a member, but I can see the site and pictures just fine.

PE

 

[RedGreenBlue]

Sally,

I located three women named Margaret who were computer pioneers. From a quick read of their biographies it seems unlikely that any would have crossed paths with Barker Devin. However, Margaret Oakley Dayhoff was in New York during WWII. This excerpt from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Oakley_Dayhoff

"Dayhoff was born an only child in Philadelphia, but moved to New York City as a child. Her academic promise was evident from the outset; she was valedictorian (class of 1942) at Bayside High School, Bayside, New York and from there received a scholarship to Washington Square College of New York University, graduating magna cum laude in mathematics in 1945."

The two other women are:

Margaret R. Fox http://women.cs.cmu.edu/ada/Resources/Women/#Margaret R.Fox

Margaret K. Butler http://books.google.com/books?id=uR...onepage&q=margaret k. butler computer&f=false

http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/whm4.html

That's all for now.

best wishes,
Scott