Dye-Imbibition (dye-transfer) & Carbon printing

Photo Engineer · May 20, 2011

There is not enough information in those references that would allow me to give an opinion. However, I have said all along that a Cibachrome material would be the easiest color print material to re-create. I have also said that only azo, disazo, and trisazo dyes are capable of undergoing the dye bleach reaction. Therefore, several of the cyans you list above cannot be used.

PE

holmburgers · May 20, 2011

I may have caused some confusion by listing the BASF links in the same post; those are for carbon pigments, not dye-bleach.

holmburgers · May 24, 2011

This morning there was a message on my phone from a sales rep at the place where I requested these pigment samples (Lansco). It said, "I need to know your application". Naturally I thought I was screwed; they realized that I'm small potatoes and not the kind of industrial buyer they cater to. However I called her and she just needed to make sure I wasn't going to use it for tattooing..... haha!

So, not that I'm really in a place where I'm ready to start making 3-color pigment prints (seeing as I've got a stock of UltraStable, and not even 1 set of separation negs!), but it's cool to know that the pigments are obtainable. Yet another surprising revelation in light of the almost complete absence of people attempting this type of printing. Anyone who does 3-color gum (that is, has sep negs handy) should consider giving this a go.

olleorama · May 24, 2011

Holmburgers, I'm so impressed by your dedication! You should consider writing an article here on apug on your findings so far. The threads are growing in all sorts of directions, and I'm starting to feel lost!

PE, would you expand your thoughts on re-creating the cibachrome process?

holmburgers · May 24, 2011

olleorama, thanks for your encouragement! I think you're right about the threads... I'll try to get an article written soon.

Here is a little bit by PE on the dye-bleach method (ignore the worthless ramblings of QG & Sirius Glass) -> (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Photo Engineer · May 24, 2011

I can easily buy Solantine Yellow, Solantine Pink and Chicago Blue and construct a working (but slow) dye bleach multilayer. I've done it by hand and by machine at EK. I can do it here. Getting comparable couplers to do chromogenic coatings is quite difficult! So, Dye Bleach remains within our grasp and chromogenic materials do not. I expect Part II of my book to be devoted to color.

I still have to find a suitable mordant for these dyes. They wash out of the coating too easily.

PE

olleorama · May 24, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
I can easily buy Solantine Yellow, Solantine Pink and Chicago Blue and construct a working (but slow) dye bleach multilayer. I've done it by hand and by machine at EK. I can do it here. Getting comparable couplers to do chromogenic coatings is quite difficult! So, Dye Bleach remains within our grasp and chromogenic materials do not. I expect Part II of my book to be devoted to color.

I still have to find a suitable mordant for these dyes. They wash out of the coating too easily.

PE

Are you actually saying dye-bleach materials could be within a layman (chemically inclined layman that is) reach?

Photo Engineer · May 24, 2011

Yes, I am saying that! Without doubt.

I will add that the support will have to be chosen carefully if you look at the single color example I posted a few months back. Many paper supports are chewed up by the chemistry or react with it!

PE

holmburgers · May 25, 2011

PE,

Would melinex be a suitable support? Does what you say about the chemicals have anything to do with why Ilfochrome is on a polyester support?

olle, if you want some good reading on dye-bleach chemistry, get a copy of J.S. Friedman's "History of Color Photography". The chapter on dye-bleach is significantly easier to understand than any of the chapters on colour-coupling, or the like. The mechanisms are much easier to understand and the chemicals are more common. This is coming from someone who has zero chemistry background!

I've learned that the best thing one can do when they come across something that is at first glance "technical" is just to read it and read it again if necessary. You might not understand exactly what's going on, but you start to get a feel for "chunks" of information; like A reacts with B to form C, even though you might have no idea what A, B or C is, you'll start to understand their relationship.

Photo Engineer · May 25, 2011

Chris - yes and yes!

PE

holmburgers · May 25, 2011

OK, as per Olleorama's suggestion, here is the start of a dedicated dye-transfer discussion.... (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I'm exhausted

holmburgers · Jun 1, 2011

http://cgi.ebay.com/COLOR-CARBON-CA...4955841?pt=US_Camera_Film&hash=item4840367441

This is pretty incredible, though I don't know if it's worth $30k

Photo Engineer · Jun 1, 2011

These materials could be so old that they are useless. True Carbro died over 50 years ago. As it says, "antique"!

PE

holmburgers · Jun 1, 2011

That's a definite possibility. Gelatin will insolubilize by itself, right?

I'll contact him in a couple weeks and offer to take it off his hands for $100

It'd be more "valuable" and interesting to know where the stuff came from... and I might have to ask that.

Photo Engineer · Jun 1, 2011

Well, most furniture contains a formalin based finish that can permeate photomaterials that are not in airtight containers. Over the years, it increases (or causes) hardening. It can destroy some color materials. This is no longer the case with Kodak color products from what I understand, but all gelatin based products can change in hardening. Many new clothing products also contain a formalin based material for rendering them "shiny" on the shelf and which dissipates after the first few washes IIRC.

PE

holmburgers · Jun 1, 2011

Very interesting... and somewhat disturbing!

I've emailed the seller and asked if he's done any hot water test with the materials, or if he knows where they came from.

I can't really tell from the item list, but does he even have carbro bromide papers? $30k Buy-it-Now is just ridiculous.... Make-an-Offer I could see.

gmikol · Jun 1, 2011

holmburgers said:
It'd be more "valuable" and interesting to know where the stuff came from... and I might have to ask that.

I may be wrong, here, but I believe that particular ebay seller has been selling off equipment from the late Dr. Robert Green. I seem to remember some discussion about a Nuarc unit a while back that came from Dr. Green's estate, and if I remember correctly, it was the same ebay seller.

That being said, I don't think it changes anything about what the current condition of any of the items for sale is, though some of it appears to be in chest freezers, at least...

--Greg

holmburgers · Jun 1, 2011

That would be very interesting. What can you tell us about Herr Doctor? It seems that a lot of the old color-carbon people are passing by, Gordon Chapple comes to mind. I'd like to know more about these folks.

It would be such an awesome collection to have and to go through, but that price is so astronomical I can't even get over it. Anyone that has $30,000 to spend probably has (or can afford) the time it would take to produce their own color tissues.

Speaking of which, the pigment samples that I requested from Lansco Colors came to me with no issues at all. I have a pint of each color... enough for a lot of experiementing I would guess. (but who knows when I'll get around to that)

gmikol · Jun 1, 2011

I don't know much about Dr. Green, other than that he was highly regarded as a carbon and carbro printer. It appears that he passed in late 2009.

I found the thread I referenced earlier. It seems to corroborate the idea that this is Dr. Green's "stash".

Hanfstaengel remnants from Dr Green

--Greg

Curt · Jun 1, 2011

holmburgers said:
Those two things aren't exclusive! To make art, one must first tinker

p.s. sorry, I was editting my "curt" post into something longer, but you beat me to it

Hey! I'm following all of this but I don't remember posting anything!

curt

gmikol · Jun 1, 2011

holmburgers said:
Speaking of which, the pigment samples that I requested from Lansco Colors came to me with no issues at all. I have a pint of each color... enough for a lot of experiementing I would guess. (but who knows when I'll get around to that)

Glad to hear that they were willing to accommodate your sample request. Do you have any information on pricing? They probably would not be interested in dealing with a number of small orders, but if it were practical to order larger quantities (a gallon?) and divide them up among interested parties...

It would be interesting if you could post some samples of full-density color and draw-downs of those pigments. L*a*b* colors would be great if you've got a spectro...

And one more thought to consider...Regardless of what APUG'ers think about inkjet printing, inkjet pigment inks (like Epson's K3 inkset), are reasonably light-fast (though, perhaps less than good watercolor pigments or whatever industrial pigments were used in UltraStable), and are very high chroma. Using those colorants might be another option for 3- or 4-color carbon, though somewhat costly to experiment with.

--Greg

holmburgers · Jun 2, 2011

Greg, that link over to B&S is very telling. I hope someone followed through on the Getty Institute suggestion.. that's the ultimate value of that collection in my eyes.

Curt... you're funny...

I will inquire about the cost and minimum orders of the pigments, and I do like your idea of splitting it up (though realistically, this is a loong term project for me).

These are the colors I received:
Quinacridone Magenta 122
Yellow Azo 155
Phthalo Blue 15:3

Compared to what Luis Nadeau says are the best pigments ((there was a url link here which no longer exists)), only the cyan is a direct hit. The magenta is 122 as opposed to 222, and the yellow was nothing more than a mildly educated guess.

I've heard that inkjet inks cost more than Dom Perignon per volume... ...but worth exploring perhaps.

I'd be more than happy to send some samples of these pigments out if there is someone that could analyze their spectrum, or wants to make some tissues. I don't know how "strong" their tint will be, but I suspect a pint will go a long way.

gmikol · Jun 2, 2011

Chris...first, let me just say I really appreciate the effort you're putting into researching this (and the other threads you've got going, as well). While I hope to contribute something original to this effort eventually, I'll freely admit that I'm drafting off of you for the time being.

A couple of points with regards to your pigment findings.

1) As far as I know, the pigment index numbers are just that, index numbers. Therefore, I don't think there is any relation between PR222 (from Nadeau) and PR122. The similarity in numbers is just coincidence, I think. Since PR222 is an azo pigment and PR122, as it's name suggests, is a quinacridone.

2) Did your supplier have anything to say about the specific pigments Nadeau called out and why they weren't available?

3) Does Nadeau give any reasoning for his choice of magenta and yellow pigments (which seem to be a little hard to track down), compared to more common alternatives, like PR122 or PV19, and PY3, PY97 or PY35. Would you be willing to try and contact him to find out?

4) Are the pigments you received in aqueous suspension, or are they dry?

Thanks again for pursuing this...

--Greg

holmburgers · Jun 2, 2011

The Chromophtal line from BASF includes many different classes of pigments, and it appears that the magentas are nearly all quinacridones. I believe quinacridone and azo are not necessarily exclusive. Visually, it looks like a good magenta (though, this can be a very deceiving judgment I'm sure).

As for the pigment numbers, I don't know for sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion that 122 is related to 222; I think the numbering system is not sequential, but each decimal place might mean something. Looking up the C.I. classifications would be an easy enough confirmation of this.

I didn't ask them about the specific pigments; at that point I just picked what I thought were a good set and requested them online. It would be interesting to ask them.

Nadeau doesn't really give any reasoning behind the choices, and it definitely would be possible to ask him. At the same time though, I might do some more research before going around asking folks, just because the answers might be out there, or obvious to someone versed in the requirements of good color reproduction. When it comes to looking at spectra, I don't yet understand what makes 1 better than the other.

When it comes to asking the heavy hitters questions, I've learned (the hard way) that we each have a certain amount of "capital" that diminishes or increases depending on the quality of our questions and prior research. I'm batting pretty low, and need to beef up my #'s!

hahah

Oh, and it's my pleasure to look into this stuff. It's a great diversion while my work is not so demanding, and no one else seems to be researching alternative color processes very diligently.

Photo Engineer · Jun 2, 2011

I don't think anyone's capital should diminish regardless of what questions or how many are asked.

I should add that only Azo dyes can be properly used in the Dye Bleach process like Ciba/Ilfochrome. In fact, back in the day, it was called the Azo Dye Bleach Process. Many other dyes are destroyed outright by the pH of the bleach bath or they are not totally destroyed and can leave a stain or can re-generate after processing to the same or a new dye.

PE

Dye-Imbibition (dye-transfer) & Carbon printing

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