Dye-Imbibition (dye-transfer) & Carbon printing

holmburgers · Jan 27, 2011

For what it's worth, a classic and "hard to find" book is David Doubly's book on Dye-Transfer. I say "hard to find" sarcastically, because one sold on eBay recently for over $100. However, I emailed with Mr. Doubly a few months earlier and he would've sent me a new one for $40.

HAH!

I think it's a good idea to start with a black dye and get the monochrome thing down. That's probably a route I haven't been considering strongly enough. However, I might start with a magenta or cyan just because the characteristics might change drastically when you decide to switch. But then again, you'd know how to deal with it by then, wouldn't you?

Boggy1 · Jan 27, 2011

Goodness! That is a bit steep for me! I found a table of contents here and in all honesty, it is probably worth the ebay price if it is as indepth as it sounds, but I just don't have the funds right now to give

In the meantime, these reads might be of use. In no way would they be as extensive as David Doubley's work, but it does provide some good breadth. They were scanned out of the British Journal of Photography Almanac 1952. I hope these are of use, and I appologise if I'm doing an information dump!

Photo Engineer · Jan 27, 2011

The Duxochrome process in those articles is a Kodachrome type process done by the user. I have described it before. It is described fully in the book by Leadly and Stegmeyer on color printing. It is a slim volume about 4x5" in size and about 50 pages long, hardcover.

Kodak has a largish book (60 some pages) with illustrations and examples on making dye transfer prints, as well as a similar book on masking, the process that must be used before making the dye transfer matrices. I have both of those in the larger book, the Kodak Color Handbook, Methods, Processes and Techniques.

PE

gordrob · Jan 27, 2011

There is also a detailed description of the the Dye Transfer Process and an outline of the steps in the loose leaf version of the Photo Lab Index. Bob Pace also put out a combined instruction book and VHS tape walks you through the process in detail.

Gord

Photo Engineer · Jan 30, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
The Duxochrome process in those articles is a Kodachrome type process done by the user. I have described it before. It is described fully in the book by Leadly and Stegmeyer on color printing. It is a slim volume about 4x5" in size and about 50 pages long, hardcover.

Kodak has a largish book (60 some pages) with illustrations and examples on making dye transfer prints, as well as a similar book on masking, the process that must be used before making the dye transfer matrices. I have both of those in the larger book, the Kodak Color Handbook, Methods, Processes and Techniques.

PE

I would like to amend this with thanks to AgX. I misread or misunderstood the Duxochrome (Duxochrom in German). It is not a Kodachrome type process. It is similar to that of Leadly and Stegmeyer and I misled myself into making incorrect comparisons as I read.

Duxochrome is not a Kodachrome type process. Sorry. So far then, the only description is in Leadly and Stegmeyer.

I am sorry for the error.

PE

holmburgers · Jan 31, 2011

If one were to take a color carbon print, either an old 50's carbro or a modern Ultrastable print, and hold it up to a window, how transparent would it be? A bit, none, completely? This of course is dismissing the base, which will undoubtedly be mostly opaque (paper).

What I'd like to make is a kind of 'modern stained glass window' photograph. Dyed but transparent gelatin layers superimposed with CMY colors to create an incredible, transmission print.

Carbon prints use pigments, which are fairly opaque as I understand it, so they are not as vivid and saturated as dye-transfers, which use dyes. But, there's a trade off as dyes are more fugitive than pigments.

Now, this is what Ian (Hexavalent) has told me regarding dyes/pigments... "The problem with dyes instead of pigments, is that dyes are soluble, which is what enabled them to be 'imbibed' by the gelatin. Many of the modern pigments are actually dyes that have been mordanted, or laked to a metal to make them insoluble." I hope he doesn't mind me using his words!

Anyways, the solution to problems usually lies in the past, and I'm now wanting to know more about stained-glass windows and how they were colored. Are they laked pigments, or dyes? Are they transparent enough to be used in a subtracive synthesis scheme? The appealing thing is that these colourants are proven to be very light fast, and a study of them could yield ideal pigments/dyes for color-carbon.

Hexavalent · Jan 31, 2011

Question #1 : Luis Nadeau can tell you

www.handprint.com has a mind-numbing amount of information regarding pigments both natural and synthetic.

IIRC, 'real' stained glass was/is coloured with metals: gold, chromium, cobalt, etc. (cheaper stuff is simply coated with colourant).

Duxochome was also known as "Colorstil" (sometimes with two L's) in the US

Photo Engineer · Jan 31, 2011

At one time, FB prints of any sort could be dipped in mild oil or glycerin and they became reasonably transparent. Then they could be put on a window for a very nice stained glass effect. But, papers do have a dmax limit of about 2.0 in reflection space which is about 1.2 by transmission. The conversion is not linear and so this method does not give "good" prints, just acceptable ones.

At one time, Kodak made a half weight paper and one of its uses was just this. Making a pseudo transparency.

PE

Boggy1 · Jan 31, 2011

Gordrob, I'll certainly keep my eye out for those books and videos!

Holmburgers, you could try to make a dye-transfer print matrix, but soak it in a mordant as well as the acid dyes. I guess that you would have to spend sometime however finding the appropriate dyes, since I'm not well read enough to know if you could use the same dyes that James Browning suggests*. You could then sandwich them together in glass. Of course, the developer might be staining, since the developer for relief prints contain pyro. That might ruin the effect somewhat.

Photo Engineer, you mean like getting some greasy chicken from KFC on my homework turns the paper see-through?

*http://www.dyetransfer.org/images/DyeTran.pdf
and thanks to Photo Engineer for linking me this

Photo Engineer · Jan 31, 2011

Boggy;

Yes, getting a FB print greasy makes it transparent, kind of like how they used to use oiled paper or parchment for windows back hundreds of years ago when glass was not easy to come by.

However it works best with thin FB such as SW or HW and less well with DW. We had a version that was half weight and I have some samples of it here from way back when.

PE

holmburgers · Feb 1, 2011

Boggy1 said:
Holmburgers, you could try to make a dye-transfer print matrix, but soak it in a mordant as well as the acid dyes. I guess that you would have to spend sometime however finding the appropriate dyes, since I'm not well read enough to know if you could use the same dyes that James Browning suggests*. You could then sandwich them together in glass. Of course, the developer might be staining, since the developer for relief prints contain pyro. That might ruin the effect somewhat.

Yeah, I think that mordanting dye's to gelatin is about the only option, and indeed does that not mean to make it a "lake"? Thus, effectively a pigment.

No worry about pyro developer, I'll be using DCG (dichromated gelatin).

Hexavalent · Feb 2, 2011

holmburgers said:
Yeah, I think that mordanting dye's to gelatin is about the only option, and indeed does that not mean to make it a "lake"? Thus, effectively a pigment.

Here's the catch: common mordants include chromium, copper, alum (aluminum salts).. which often harden gelatin.

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2011

We used quaternary salts which affect the emulsion when added raw, but do not when combined with the dye. The same can be true of the metals!

PE

holmburgers · Feb 3, 2011

Ok, after doing some thinking...

The gelatin layers could be etched before the dye on a temporary (wax) support and then dyed/mordanted. Maybe they would transfer at this point to a final support?

And how exactly does one use quaternary salts? These plus a dye could theoretically be mixed in the gelatin emulsion, coated, exposed and then etched? Or would one be better to dye the coating?

This is all theoretical of course, but interesting...

Hexavalent · Feb 3, 2011

In the back of my mind, I knew there was some whacky process with mordanted dyes..

Le voila! Uvachrome:

http://photoconservation.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65&Itemid=61

holmburgers · Feb 3, 2011

Very cool!

Boggy1 · Feb 4, 2011

Well, I've taken the plunge, and I've bought myself some of Maco's Genius Print Film to experiment with.

Apart from a few niknaks here and there, I finally have everything I need for a darkroom, so hopefully in the next few weeks I'll be doing more than just talking the talk!

holmburgers · Feb 4, 2011

Right on!

I'll be curious to know if it truly acts like a paper, because being able to create enlarged prints on a clear substrate would make contact negatives a breeze!

I've got the Kodak DT tanning developer formula if you need it BTW :wizard:

holmburgers · Feb 4, 2011

Thought...

Dye-transfer matrix film has a yellow dye in it to limit absorption of the light, keep a lower relief and control contrast. I was thinking that 'wouldn't it be nice' to add some kind of yellow dye to gelatin matrices to do the same but presto, the potassium-dichromate sensitizer will lend its yellow color to the matrix and then happily wash out!

Photo Engineer · Feb 4, 2011

Dichromate in gelatin reacts with the gelatin on exposure to UV radiation. It remains to be seen how much "color" remains in the gelatin.

PE

holmburgers · Feb 4, 2011

Well, I admit that I've yet to do a carbon print, but I know that the clearing bath of sodium bisulfite is supposed to be twice as long as it takes to "clear the stain", and I know it is quite orange by appearance.

After sensitization in k-dichromate but before processing, wouldn't it be somewhat yellow?

Photo Engineer · Feb 4, 2011

Correct, but chrome cross links the gelatin and is colored!

PE

Hexavalent · Feb 4, 2011

holmburgers said:
Thought...

Dye-transfer matrix film has a yellow dye in it to limit absorption of the light, keep a lower relief and control contrast. I was thinking that 'wouldn't it be nice' to add some kind of yellow dye to gelatin matrices to do the same but presto, the potassium-dichromate sensitizer will lend its yellow color to the matrix and then happily wash out!

The yellow dye limits light scattering within matrix film and controls contrast, but unlike dichro, does not cause hardening. A similar situation occurs with color carbon: UV can quite merrily penetrate deep into the cyan tissue making contrast control difficult. Some practioners added yellow dye during sensitization, some even tried manganese oxide (IIRC), dissolving it out afterwards with acid.

Photo Engineer · Feb 4, 2011

The yellow dye, BTW, is Tartrazine.

PE

holmburgers · Feb 5, 2011

Ok, I'm confused.

I'm talking about DCG-gelatin on clear substrate for dye-imbibition matrices. This will be sensitized with potassium-dichromate, which is quite yellow, is it not?

Since each matrix will be treated the same in this respect, they will have equal amounts of k-dich. stain and independent of the dye which they will later be imbibed with. I know tartrazine can be used in imbibition, but I'm not sure what relevance it has at the moment, unless I'm missing something.

In summation, I'm just saying that sensitizing the DCG-gelatin-matrices will have the serendipitous advantage of already containing a yellow stain which hopefully will limit UV penetration and control contrast, etc., just like Kodak's matrix film.

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