Dye-Imbibition (dye-transfer) & Carbon printing

holmburgers · Dec 7, 2010

Duly noted. That'll be wise at first. What do you use for your gum prints? Same story?

nworth · Dec 8, 2010

First, carbon and Carbro are somewhat different processes. Carbon uses light to harden the pigmented gelatin, Carbro uses a bromide print to do this. The heliochrome process appears to be similar to standard carbon printing. Dye transfer is different. With carbon and Carbro, the excess stained gelatin is removed with hot water to produce the graded image. Three or four color carbon can be used to produce outstanding color prints. Dye transfer uses the tanning developer to selectively harden the gelatin in the matrix so that it will not absorb dye. The remaining gelatin absorbs dye in proportion to its thickness and then transfers it to the final support. Preparation of the matrix film, with very uniform coating, is tricky and requires good quality control. It might be possible to make a dichromate based matrix film, however. The problem is that the unhardened gelatin is on the bottom, stuck to the support. It is the unhardened gelatin that absorbs the dye. If you coat the emulsion on a transparent base, you solve part of the problem. But you would have to expose through the base (as with dye transfer), and dichromate emulsions are too slow for projection printing. Contact printing through the base would be unsharp, although it might be acceptable by using a very small point source or scanned laser beam.

Photo Engineer · Dec 8, 2010

I'm afraid that your description of the Dye Transfer process is incorrect. Sorry.

The tanning developer hardens the gelatin and is exposed via the base. Therefore a relief image is formed on the surface of the support comprised of this hardened gelatin. The unhardened gelatin is washed off leaving the hardened gelatin which is then used to absorb dye imagewise and which is then transferred to the receiver paper.

In this fashion, a dichromate material could be fashioned to make up a "matrix film" if done properly.

PE

Hexavalent · Dec 8, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
he unhardened gelatin is washed off leaving the hardened gelatin which is then used to absorb dye imagewise and which is then transferred to the receiver paper.
PE

Before it was called "Kodak Dye Transfer" or "Kodak Dye Relief" , I believe the process was called "Eastman Wash-Off Relief"

"Heliochrome" was a term used by Niécpe for his 'natural colour' work - later it became a generic term for colour carbon, collotypes etc.,

Photo Engineer · Dec 8, 2010

Yes, Ian, correct. Ntenny was incorrect in his post.

PE

AgX · Dec 9, 2010

holmburgers said:
Nadeau says that a carbon print is only as archival as it's support, and goes on to say that RC papers cannot be considered truly archival. Why is this? What happens to RC papers in the long run?

The idea of less-longevity on PE-laminated paper is based on three points:

-) the lack of a "sink" for unwanted salts in form of the base paper

-) the degradation of polyethelene undere UV-light

-) the enhanced degradation of white polyethylene with TiO2 pigments, due to the catalytic action of TiO2 under UV-light, yielding radicals.

But as PE already pointed out that issue of the polyethylene becoming brittle has seemingly been overcome by now.

holmburgers · Dec 9, 2010

Thanks y'all.

I believe that the finer points of carbon, carbro and dye-transfer have already been disclosed in this thread, but good information bears repeating, I guess?

There's no reason why a dichromated gelatin relief matrix won't work. As R Shaffer has pointed out to me, that's exactly what the Pinatype process was. The subbed melinex at photoformulary (spelled "melenex", which is incorrect and yet searching melinex will yield no results.... ridiculous) should be perfect for coating the matrices. It's clear and exposing thru the base is a given. However, you raise a great point about needing a point light source and for UV this is no easy task. A yellow dye in the matrix might help to reduce the UV scatter and diminish these effects, but I don't know how much.

I've been told from a non-APUG confidant that the receiving paper is no simple matter and is very important for the final image.

Either way, none of these concerns justify not continuing on.

nworth · Dec 9, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
I'm afraid that your description of the Dye Transfer process is incorrect. Sorry.

The tanning developer hardens the gelatin and is exposed via the base. Therefore a relief image is formed on the surface of the support comprised of this hardened gelatin. The unhardened gelatin is washed off leaving the hardened gelatin which is then used to absorb dye imagewise and which is then transferred to the receiver paper.

In this fashion, a dichromate material could be fashioned to make up a "matrix film" if done properly.

PE

Thank you for this clarification. Indeed, it does open the opportunity for using dichromate. It should even be possible to transfer the hardened gelatin in a manner similar to carbon processing and thereby allow contact printing in the ordinary manner. The use of materials designed for transfer of glaze designs to ceramics might be usable in this manner. They have the advantage of being uniform and available commercially at moderate cost. If the tissue were available, three color carbon might actually be a bit simpler, however. Since the hardened gelatin is closest to the surface, it seems that you might be able to design a tissue and process that did not require transfer. The problem would be to make the unhardened gelatin stay put during the wet processing.

holmburgers · Jan 24, 2011

A Few New Thoughts

Ok,

So, I've found a paper that is non-supercoated and therefore suitable for carbro printing. It's David Lewis' bromoil paper and he personally confirmed that it is suitable for carbro printing. If you get the notion, please buy it and give it a try. I plan to someday myself.

I think it's very reasonably priced, at < $1 a sheet of 8x10".

http://www.bromoil.com/products-supplies.html

This opens up some possibilities. Most obviously is the option for making carbon prints with all sorts of different pigments that might adversely effect the penetration of UV light. But since the hardening will be done chemically, via a carbro bleach, this isn't a problem.

Also, for the 'dye-transfer using dichromated gelatin' scheme, it raises the possibility of making enlarged bromide prints from small separation negatives and carbro-ing these onto DCG-matrices, thus no enlarged negatives. Can you say BOON!?

I also wonder if the bromoil paper itself couldn't be used as a crude (or perhaps elegant) matrix film. What would happen if it was developed in the standard matrix film developer? Hmm... Afterall, bromoil relies on a planographic matrix. (as opposed to a positive-relief matrix).

Oh, and I would recommend Luis Nadeau's "Modern Carbon Printing"[sic] which has instructions for carbro and mentions briefly pigments suitable for tri-color. I believe Ian (Hexavalent) mentioned this book earlier in the thread.

Boggy1 · Jan 25, 2011

All this is probably way over my head, so if this is impractical, irrelevent, or has already been said, then I appologise!

If you guys have been looking for a paper emulsion but on a clear base, then you could try using Maco's "Genius Print Film". You could use it to expose it through the base, and I believe that it hasn't got that pesky extra layer of gelatin, as in the data sheet it actually states that its suitable for Bormoil.

Perhaps this could be used with the tanning developer below to create a basis for a dye-transfer print. I'm not sure if you would begin to wash off the unhardened gelatin or use it to accept the dye or inks, but something could be done with it atleast. It could be a healthier alternative to using a dichromate sensitiser (I've seen Erin Brockovich to be playing around with that stuff!).

It would be great if you guys got back to me with some input, as this is a project I would love to undertake!

Data Sheet:
http://www.mahn.net/TAgenie.pdf

Retail outlet:
http://www.macodirect.de/films-macoefke-c-1_6_412.html

"D-175 Tanning Developer

A tanning developer for the production of gelatine reliefs and stencils.

Solution A
4 grammes (140 grains) Pyro
5 grammes (175 grains) Sodium Sulphite (anhyd.)
1000 cc Water to make

Solution B
28 grammes (175 grains)) Sodium carbonate (anhyd.)
1000 cc Water to make

Mix equal parts of Solutions A and B immediately before use."

Source: Page 11 of "Formulary (FY) Kodak Data Book of applied photography- Volume 3, either by or copyrighted by C. Manning Walter M.P.A (reg), date unknown. (but presumed to be out of ancient) NB. Formatting has been changed from a table into a list to suit a forum format better, if a scanned copy is needed, just ask.

holmburgers · Jan 25, 2011

Hi Boggy,

This is very interesting; I've never heard of it before. Indeed, it's available in your link, but everyone else seems to think it's discontinued. Hmmm.... oh well, that doesn't matter at the moment... if it's there it's there!

I don't honestly know if it would be suitable. I do know that matrix film is quite unique in it's formulation, and I'm wondering if this fits the bill. The key would be how well it can make a positive-relief in the tanning developer; and then how well it imbibes dyes. (This has to do with pH of the gelatin in some degree)

I would encourage you to try this if it's easy for you to do so. I think that testing various papers/films for their ability to make a relief in tanning developers would be a great route to explore for methods of alternative dye-imbition printing.

It does say that it is a half-tone film though. Doesn't that imply litho type film? Is continuous tone possible? If so, this would also hold some potential for making large negatives for contact printing in the carbon scheme.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but it is certainly something to experiment with.

My closing question is, how high is the relief in a carbon print compared to say, the relief of a negative developed in Pyro or any tanning developer? I think the relief will be the important fact, and yet I don't even know the extent of the relief in a dye-transfer matrix film.

Photo Engineer · Jan 25, 2011

I believe that the relief image in a carbon print is much greater than that of a tanned film image.

PE

Hexavalent · Jan 25, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
I believe that the relief image in a carbon print is much greater than that of a tanned film image.

PE

With carbon printing, one starts with a thick layer of completely unhardened gelatin which is 'tanned' by means of UV and dichromate, whereas the gelatin layer of film is somewhat pre-hardened, and much thinner.

I cannot supply actual measurements, but I can say that carbon-print relief can be enormous compared to that of film/tanning developer. The amount of sugar in the carbon tissue, dichro concentration, exposure and pigment used, development and the final support all affect the amount of relief.

holmburgers · Jan 26, 2011

I wonder how a Kodak DT matrix film relief compares. Perhaps if Jim Browning is around he could give us an idea.

Boggy1 · Jan 26, 2011

If the thickness of the emulsion of Maco's Genius Print Film is thinner than the "special kodak matrix stuff", then I suppose that it will just absorb less dye. Perhaps this could be compensated for by either changing the contrast of the print or even transfering the ink over twice.

Regardless, when I get my darkroom set up, I am definitely trying this. Unfortunately it is taking to clear a suitable space for it, but on the bright side atleast I have plenty of time to consider what kind of dye could be used. It would probably be best to start off with black, but would an oil, water acid or carbon based dye be best?

holmburgers · Jan 26, 2011

Actually, in the classic dye-transfer procedure the dyes are transferred twice... so better make it 3!

The most suitable dyes for imbition are acid dyes. Acid dyes have good stability to light and are reasonably saturated; basic dyes on the other hand are incredibly saturated but incredibly fugitive, or unstable.

Dyes are tricky.. and there are a whole host that have the potential for use, but many are hard to get a hold of, though I admit I haven't tried that hard yet. eBay surprisingly has a good amount of dyes, and companies will send you samples (or so I've heard) if you express your interest in buying large amounts.

Keep in mind that dyes and ink are two greatly different things. Historically speaking, most acid dyes have been created for textile dying, and I think that this holds the greatest promise for finding a hobby friendly dye. I purchased a "Wash Fast" acid dye, magenta (http://www.yarnbarn-ks.com/Washfast-Acid--Dye-1-oz/productinfo/DY-WASH01-/) and it holds promise for a good magenta. Whether it acts well in a DT scheme is YTBD.

I have an old article that I can post which gives a good idea of the variables encountered in dye-transfer. I'll look for it...

As for inks.. bromoil uses an oily ink, though I'm no expert on the process. As I understand it, you soak the matrix in water, which absorbs into the untanned portions, wipe it lightly, and then apply the ink. The ink goes where the water is not, i.e. the tanned portions, and that is how the image is formed. Then you put it in a press to transfer the image.

There are two types of matrices; planographic and positive-relief. Bromoil uses a planographic, which means there is no hot water etch; but instead you leave all the gelatin there, tanned and untanned. Positive-relief matrices are hot-water etched and thus you get a relief of tanned gelatin, with thicker and thinner parts relating to the image; a la carbon/carbro, and Kodak matrix film. I believe that there have been dye-imbition processes in the past that used planographic. Jos Pe, Pinatype, and Kodak Wash-Off Relief were the precursors to Kodak Dye-Transfer, by the way.

holmburgers · Jan 26, 2011

'Dyes for Imbibition Printing' by Howard C. Colton & Silas M. Thronson

Damn PDF is too big and I don't know how to resize... so it is in 3 parts, sorry!

Print it out, staple it, you'll never know the difference

This is quite a good primer given to me by a friend. The dyes mentioned are but a small percentage of potential dyes for the process. Read J.S. Friedman's "History of Color Photography", chapter on dye-transfer (might not be called that specifically). It lists lots of potential dye classes that would work.

P.S. I just learned that I"ve been misspelling "imbition", it should be imbibition! That probably means I've been pronouncing it wrong too!

holmburgers · Jan 26, 2011

2 of 3

holmburgers · Jan 26, 2011

3 of 3

JBrunner · Jan 26, 2011

holmburgers said:
P.S. I just learned that I"ve been misspelling "imbition", it should be imbibition! That probably means I've been pronouncing it wrong too!

Title fixed.

Photo Engineer · Jan 26, 2011

Go here: http://www.dyetransfer.org/images/DyeTran.pdf for everything you want to know about dyes and dye transfer.

Chris, FYI LEECHING means removing blood from a person using a LEECH, whereas LEACH means removal of one material from another by means of a gradual solvent extraction.

BTW, I knew Howie Colton. He worked at EK, but I never knew he worked with Neblette and wrote a book. Neblette used to be head of GEH.

PE

holmburgers · Jan 27, 2011

Thanks JB! And now PE is telling me I've misspelled leach.... WOW. Seriously, I was in the Spelling Bee in 8th grade, I don't know what's happening to me... (photo fumes no doubt)

So it's im-bi-bi-tion? I've been saying imbition, as in "fluition". Ay yay yay!

PE, is Mr. Colton still around? I would guess that he was a fair bit older than you though?, judging by the age of this publication.

Photo Engineer · Jan 27, 2011

Chris;

Howie Colton was near retirement age when I joined Kodak IIRC. I know nothing about him since about 1970 or thereabouts. He worked in a division of research or development.

I thought I would put the "bee" in your bonnet over Leach vs Leech!

PE

holmburgers · Jan 27, 2011

Yes... and it stung!

Just joshing ya' of course... I figured as much about Mr. Colton. At least you've proven he was indeed a real person.

Boggy1 · Jan 27, 2011

Wow, thanks Holmburgers and Photo Engineer!

Both of your documents were some very great reads! Even though I have to admit, the paper by Howard C. Colton and Silas M. Thronson were extremely hard to wade through! But at least I now have gotten my head around what an acid dye and mordant is! What I should do now is probably go track down a suitable mordant and dye that is black. That should give me a finished image and let me get a feel for the process before I go into colour separations and such. But when I do get my feet on the ground (probably in the next few months, weather permitting), thankyou for linking me to that document Photo Engineer, as the suggestions for the replacement dyes are invaluable.

I was researching more closely into the subject, and I have found a great introduction into dye-transfer from Kodak. The diagram is invaluable.

Dye-Imbibition (dye-transfer) & Carbon printing

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