DSLR digitizing project

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Lachlan Young

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I know I’m sticking my neck out here, risking sounding stupid:
Are you sure you are not talking about RA4 enlarging, where the 50R would be used to single out two of the channels?

In my experience (which I have had good results with) you want to counter the orange with its opposite Cyan.
I’ve had good luck with two filters. A 50C and a much weaker magenta, I forget how much exactly.
Just to ballpark the negative in.

Adding extra red on top of the already reddish mask would seem completely counterintuitive.
You’d end up with a very blue positive.

Yeah, my brain wasn't functioning particularly well by the early hours of the morning...

The main thing I've found is that getting the illuminant to the 2800-3800ish range seems to get everything to line up well - any additional filtration is purely experimental - and I've seen some pretty questionable results from the filtration out of the mask on a 5000k illuminant in terms of coherent curves for inversion/ correction. Colour profile choice is rather essential too - even Adobe RGB can be a bit too big to produce realistic greens and blues (RA4 paper gamut seems closer to sRGB). It would certainly be interesting to compare a 5000k light table against flash, both filtered & unfiltered, and throw in a tungsten source dichroic head (as per some duplication systems - essentially an inverted enlarger head) and see how that does.
 
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grat

grat

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The sun is yellow because of Rayleigh scattering. In space it’s quite white.
And the accumulative output on a sunny day is white.

First, it's classified as a G2, which is considered yellow/white in appearance.

Secondly, it's not pure white-- I believe you'll find it has peaks and valleys at different spectral frequencies. Although where I live, the argument could be made this week that it's a solid, dull gray stretching from one horizon to the other. :wink:
 

Helge

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First, it's classified as a G2, which is considered yellow/white in appearance.

Secondly, it's not pure white-- I believe you'll find it has peaks and valleys at different spectral frequencies. Although where I live, the argument could be made this week that it's a solid, dull gray stretching from one horizon to the other. :wink:
This is ultimately about psychophysics and as such more in line with Goethe than Newton.

It would figure that the perceived neutral spectrum for the inhabitants on a planet, would be the sum of the suns light on a bright day.
 

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That's fair. However-- if the light source and the sensor are that closely matched, where would the color shift come into the equation?

For all intents and purposes, I'm using the negative as a highly varied filter for the light source. It will block certain frequencies to one degree or another, but it's not going to alter the frequency of light passing through. If the film were blocking frequencies of light that made it incompatible with a Bayer sensor, then DSLR digitizing shouldn't be possible with ANY light source.


Now see-- not only is that a helpful response, it makes me feel like an idiot. Well done. :smile:

I already have a pinhole, may track down a diffraction grating just for fun-- or possibly an inexpensive spectroscope.

So, I didn't fully answer some of your questions. First let me say that this is a long post for clarity, and if you want to use an LED panel for this, don't let me stand in your way. It may be made to work, it's just that the RGB histograms tell you very little about whether it will work.

If you have a relatively continuous light source, like the sun, an electronic flash, or an incandescent lightbulb, it has a spectrum that is described reasonably well by a color temperature (about 5000 K for the sun, 3200 K for photo hot lights, 2400 K for consumer incandescent, etc), which is the temp of the equivalent blackbody. Because the spectrum is continuous, you can roughly convert illumination from one color temp to another using a color conversion filter to compensate the red/blue tilt of the spectrum. For ex an 80A is a blue filter that bluens hot lights to use with daylight balanced film, and an 85B is the opposite, warming filter. In the digital world you can usually just tweak the white balance settings, which rebalances the RGB channels to the same effect.

Problems arose with lights that did not have a continuous spectrum, in particular fluorescents. Fluorescents, especially older ones, have a spectrum that is dominated by certain features like mercury emission lines that are narrow in wavelength. So you couldn't just slap an 85B warming filter on and get normal tones under fluorescent light. The fluorescent spectrum interacted badly with the sensitivity of the 3 layers of color film. This is why those FL-D filters became common - they look purple, I think because they have a transmission notch that cuts out greenish light. In any case, they are tuned to film, not your eye.

White LEDs present the same problem. If they aren't tuned to have a broad spectrum and a high CRI, then they are likely to have fairly uneven spectral features within each of the R,G,B channels. You can tune the sensitivity of the R,G,B channels to balance their overall levels (white balancing). But the problem is that you're also trying to image the light through the negative or slide you are digitizing, and the color layers of the film have some variation in transmission as a function of wavelength that is tuned to make colors look nice to your eye (or print nicely on RA4 paper), but is not tuned to play well with the non-uniform LED spectrum. For example, the layer that transmits/absorbs blue light may be "expecting" to see a spectrum that falls off toward the violet, while white LEDs can be oppressively strong in violet (see next post).

Thus, a histogram of an exposure of a light source can tell you whether the light source is balanced in overall R,G,B terms, but not whether the source has a reasonably continuous spectrum within each channel, which is what you might want to know. For that, you need to take a spectrum.
 

reddesert

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I mentioned that it is possible to take a spectrum using a diffraction grating or even a CD. We often use cheap diffraction gratings in cardboard spectroscopes to demonstrate the different spectra of everyday light using the sun and a fluorescent lamp (I am an astrophysicist and we do this kind of stuff in classes or to educate the public). There are lots of examples using CDs and a cardboard box or tube to provide the entrance slit, eg google "diy spectroscope" or look at https://scienceworksmuseum.org/diy-spectroscope/ A longer tube and narrower slit or pinhole provide a higher resolution but dimmer spectrum.

I like to try out these ideas to make sure they actually illustrate the point. So here are some examples. I made a pinhole by poking a pin into a foil seal from a can of coffee, shined three different flashlights through it holding it at arm's length above a CD, and took a picture of each spectrum with my phone. Click each to enlarge:

1. IMG_8606.jpg 2. IMG_8607.jpg 3. IMG_8608.jpg

The photos are: 1) a bright white LED bike light; 2) an old incandescent flashlight (an old 2 AA Maglite); and 3) a typical white LED flashlight. The resolution of the spectrum isn't enough to separate out individual features in the green-yellow-red part of the spectrum very well. Also, the phone camera's color rendering isn't perfect, but visually they looked pretty similar to this.

You can see that photo 2, the Maglite, is weak in the blue (the batteries were old), ie warmer, as expected for an incandescent.

Photos 1 and 3, the white LEDs, have clear features far in the blue/violet. The bike light is super strong in the violet and actually weak in the blue before it picks up again in the green part of the spectrum. The LED flashlight is less violet, but still has this feature of a strong blue peak and then a gap in the blue-green before green comes in.

This variation in the blue is likely to cause problems for color rendering and is why people pay extra for light sources with higher CRI, etc.
 
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grat

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So, I didn't fully answer some of your questions. First let me say that this is a long post for clarity, and if you want to use an LED panel for this, don't let me stand in your way. It may be made to work, it's just that the RGB histograms tell you very little about whether it will work.

I don't know how to say this in a non-offensive way-- but this is twice now that someone has given me permission that I didn't ask for (or need). I realize it wasn't intended in a patronizing manner, but it feels like the "well, if you're not going to listen!!"... except, I am listening. I asked how to tell if a given LED would make a reasonable light source, and was told "use Flash!" or "use Halogen!". You're about the only person who's given any truly useful suggestions regarding my question, so I'm hesitant to get irritable, but, and perhaps this is my fault, while I'm not an astrophysicist, I'm not totally ignorant of the issues.

I feel like this is the equivalent of someone asking how to use Photoshop, and me telling them a 486-SX CPU won't work. The assumptions that LED technology in 2020 is no more advanced than it was in 2000, I expect on the Large Format forum, but was under the impression this forum was a bit more open-minded about technological improvements in the past 20 years.

I've hated the "intermittent" spectrum fluorescents for years. I've ranted against them in the workplace, because the flicker annoys me, and the light's terrible-- and I know why the light's terrible.

Bolting 3 RGB LED's onto a plate and calling it "white" is also old hat, and doesn't work well.

But that's not a modern white LED with a high CRI index. Assuming their specs are legit, I'm using a panel which has a CRI > 95 (probably 95.000001, but still). Now, I don't have the tools to measure that performance (and don't know what LED's they used, so I can't look it up), but they claim it will do anywhere from 3200k to 5600k. As I said elsewhere, I presume this means they have a mix of 3200k LED's and 5600k LED's.

So the bottom line, and the answer to my original question, is that looking at the individual RGB channels in the histogram does give me *some* information-- If all three curves are similar, then the light source is putting out similar intensities at the Red, Green and Blue points of that particular Bayer filter, and if they're heavily disjointed, then that's not really a good light source for that camera-- but it's not going to answer questions of suitability for DSLR imaging of color negatives.

Fortunately, searching around the internet reveals that this particular panel is one of the preferred panels for DSLR digitizing setups, along with sample images, which on the whole look pretty good.
 
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grat

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I mentioned that it is possible to take a spectrum using a diffraction grating or even a CD. We often use cheap diffraction gratings in cardboard spectroscopes to demonstrate the different spectra of everyday light using the sun and a fluorescent lamp (I am an astrophysicist and we do this kind of stuff in classes or to educate the public). There are lots of examples using CDs and a cardboard box or tube to provide the entrance slit, eg google "diy spectroscope" or look at https://scienceworksmuseum.org/diy-spectroscope/ A longer tube and narrower slit or pinhole provide a higher resolution but dimmer spectrum.

I like to try out these ideas to make sure they actually illustrate the point. So here are some examples. I made a pinhole by poking a pin into a foil seal from a can of coffee, shined three different flashlights through it holding it at arm's length above a CD, and took a picture of each spectrum with my phone. Click each to enlarge:

I appreciate the time and effort. While I don't think it will be particularly useful, I went ahead and ordered a cheap spectroscope, because they're fun to have lying around.

I'm pretty sure I saw a datasheet for the LED in the bike light, because what you show on your spectrum is almost identical to the output curve from the manufacturer.

Do you know the CRI rating of any of these light sources? I realize CRI isn't the end-all of ratings, but it's not a bad place to start.
 

Lachlan Young

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The assumptions that LED technology in 2020 is no more advanced than it was in 2000, I expect on the Large Format forum, but was under the impression this forum was a bit more open-minded about technological improvements in the past 20 years.

Honestly, the biggest problem I've seen (on a perceptual basis) from high CRI/TLCI LED panels used to scan negs was a global white-balance one - get the WB of the source in the right zone around 3200K & it largely works pretty straightforwardly - if you choose your gamut sensibly. The thing which drives me even more up the wall is the assumption that somehow LED's are inferior to the (not exactly Kino-Flo level) fluorescent tubes used in most high end flatbeds (never mind Epson etc) - when LED's have been used for years in cinema on films that had a chemical finish (ie prints struck directly from neg and digital versions taken from the print) and it would have been really damned obvious if your neg had issues from the freaking LED practicals etc!
 

plummerl

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I've been using the Raleno PLV-S116 with very good results. I and many other users of Negative Lab Pro (very large group) have been using the Raleno and others, using a temperature setting of either 5000K or 5500K. This is also the recommendation of the NLP developer. I've now converted hundreds of 4x5, 6x6, 645 and 35mm (color & B&W) with extremely satisfying results.
 
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So, I have some results. First, the gory bits:

One image scanned with Epson v800 using SilverFast AI @ 2400 PPI, with negafix. Then loaded into Affinity, levels tweaked a bit, mild sharpening applied via "Frequency Separation" filter.

Second image "scanned" with EOS 90D + 100mm f/2.8 macro lens at f/8, 1/30th, white balance set to 5000k on camera and light panel. Stitched in Affinity, inverted with negadoctor in Darktable, levels tweaked a bit, mild sharpening applied via Frequency Separation.

Approximately similar crop selected, exported, and resized to X=3840, aspect fixed.

The resulting images are both remarkably similar, and wildly different. I have hopefully removed any exif info that might give away the game, because I'd like honest opinions about which is preferred. Personally, I'm having a hard time deciding. :smile:

crop_1a.jpg


crop_2a.jpg
 

Anon Ymous

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I suspect the white one is the DSLR one. I can't really say one is preferred over the other.
 

Helge

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It’s very hard to judge anything at that size.
But seeing the speck of dust it seems that infrared spec removal was not employed in the white one.

Question is did the flower really have those pink accents?
And if it did, the white flower photo is of course overexposed in that part, while it captures more shadow detail elsewhere.
That’s a good example that sometimes it’s good to do multiple captures at different stops. And then combine.

Also, judging by the grain, the white flower photo has slightly finer grain.
This could mean DSLR scanning.
 

Anon Ymous

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It’s very hard to judge anything at that size.
But seeing the speck of dust it seems that infrared spec removal was not employed in the white one...
This is exactly the reason why I think the white one was scanned with a DSLR.
 

Helge

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The assumptions that LED technology in 2020 is no more advanced than it was in 2000, I expect on the Large Format forum, but was under the impression this forum was a bit more open-minded about technological improvements in the past 20 years.
The story of continuous relentless technical improvement as an absolute natural constant, is something promulgated primarily by marketing and other people with an agenda or product to push.
It's for the most part untrue.
In the last fifty years or so, micro lithography and the associated Moores Law (which in itself is mostly probably a self-fulfilling construct. Where the carefully measured, predicable release of new processes benefits very few) is the only realm that has seen such lock stepped development.
And of course the benefits of speedier, higher bandwidth microelectronics, spills over into the adjacent fields, an into the mindset of the common man, helped by pseudo scientists waxing lyrical, producing the well know narrative.
I can think of many fields that has seen no, or very little real technological development for several decades.

The science of phosphors and phosphorescence is one of those fields.
Phosphors are what allow the so called white LEDs.
However, show me a phosphor with an even spectral response over what is perceived as white light.

No amount of analog filtering and mixing can take out sharp spikes or strong dips in what was supposed to be a continuous spectrum.
 
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warden

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So I'm working a project to wring as much resolution out of a negative as is feasible, with as little pain and suffering as possible.

I haven't dug in to this thread yet but remember you saying a while back that you were going to create this system.

"Watch Thread"

Thanks!
 
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Actually, I don't bother with the dust removal as a rule, even when scanning on the Epson-- Instead, I use the repair tools in Affinity, as they give me more control over how the dust is removed.

I do clean the negative a bit more thoroughly, so yes, the white one is the DSLR-- that negative has been sitting on my test bench for a couple days, and even though I keep it covered when I'm not experimenting, obviously dust builds up.

I'm not entirely sure where the pink tinges came from-- they weren't even that obvious until I compared the two side by side.

It seems to me that I'm getting more detail out of the DSLR, but a bit more dynamic range from the Epson. Not necessarily in terms of maximum and minimum (The 90D's sensor is supposed to be good for 10 stops at ISO 100, which I used), but I think the DSLR image has a more compressed range, resulting in less gradation. In a way, that makes sense, because on the Epson I pre-scan, and then set the histogram endpoints for the final scan.

Doing the same with the DSLR is going to take some thought.
 

warden

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So, I have some results.
That's interesting. I opened each in Photoshop for a closer look, and the differences between approaches seem to mirror what I'd expect in a film vs digital debate, namely that the Canon is performing better on the darker areas and the Epson is performing better on the hi lights. The Epson has dropped detail in the green leaves and the Canon has blown hi lights in the white petals.

These differences might be due to factors other than Canon vs Epson but still thought provoking.
 

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It would be interesting to see the raw file off the Canon, as there's a lot of variance in terms of gamut and exposure behaviour that can creep in at the raw conversion stage & have a huge impact on the quality of the final file.
 

warden

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It would be interesting to see the raw file off the Canon, as there's a lot of variance in terms of gamut and exposure behaviour that can creep in at the raw conversion stage & have a huge impact on the quality of the final file.
Yep, I predict when the Canon robot is dialed in it's going to leave the Epson behind.
 
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Agreed. I left the raw conversion up to Affinity-- perhaps I should have managed it more closely. I've certainly been known to claim that Canon DPP 4 does a better job of RAW conversion.

Here's a link to the CR3 file. Note that CR3 is the newer version of Canon's RAW format, and may or may not be supported by your tools. :smile:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JGtn7OkqBc6VkNQeA1R5RXU5mhoWb74a/view?usp=sharing
 

plummerl

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Actually, I don't bother with the dust removal as a rule, even when scanning on the Epson-- Instead, I use the repair tools in Affinity, as they give me more control over how the dust is removed.

I do clean the negative a bit more thoroughly, so yes, the white one is the DSLR-- that negative has been sitting on my test bench for a couple days, and even though I keep it covered when I'm not experimenting, obviously dust builds up.

I'm not entirely sure where the pink tinges came from-- they weren't even that obvious until I compared the two side by side.

It seems to me that I'm getting more detail out of the DSLR, but a bit more dynamic range from the Epson. Not necessarily in terms of maximum and minimum (The 90D's sensor is supposed to be good for 10 stops at ISO 100, which I used), but I think the DSLR image has a more compressed range, resulting in less gradation. In a way, that makes sense, because on the Epson I pre-scan, and then set the histogram endpoints for the final scan.

Doing the same with the DSLR is going to take some thought.
If you have Lightroom and if you haven't tried it, give Negative Lab Pro a test. You can process 12 images with his trial download (https://www.negativelabpro.com/). I've had amazing success with it, both with DSLR and scanners.
 
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If you have Lightroom and if you haven't tried it, give Negative Lab Pro a test. You can process 12 images with his trial download (https://www.negativelabpro.com/). I've had amazing success with it, both with DSLR and scanners.

Yeah-- Not a fan of Adobe's licensing any more. For negative inversion, Darktable + negadoctor is working well. Surprisingly, I opened a negative in Affinity, hit auto-levels, auto-color, and a straight invert-- and the result was remarkably close to what I was looking for.
 
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Just as a follow up on the original question.

After picking up a very inexpensive spectroscope, I can say that the light from my LED is continuous. There are no gaps (unlike a CFL or a regular florescent). Below 430nm it's pretty weak, and there's a small dip around 470nm-- not quite as much as reddesert's example in post #30, but noticeable. Then it's quite strong all the way out to about 680nm.

I went looking for a published LED spectrum that matched what I'm seeing, and found this one. For bonus points, it includes a standard halogen curve as well.

Spectral-Plot-Lumicrest-vs-halogen.jpg
Image copied from Lumicrest.com web site
 

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Question about the overall quality of LED light: I can see how it would be important with color film, but is it equally important for black and white?
 
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