Drying marks with Ilford 120 FP4 and HP5??

[michaelbsc]

Is it feasible to soak the film in white vinegar to attempt to remove the deposit?

Vinegar is dirt cheap where I live, and I imagine it isn't expensive anywhere.

So a couple of bucks for a bottle of vinegar is you don't happen to have it already in the kitchen, and cut it to 1+3 is where I would start. Not sure what concentration would be recommended to clean calcium stains. But 1+3 should be about 1-2% acetic acid for most grocery store brands.

 

[brian steinberger]

Vinegar is dirt cheap where I live, and I imagine it isn't expensive anywhere.

So a couple of bucks for a bottle of vinegar is you don't happen to have it already in the kitchen, and cut it to 1+3 is where I would start. Not sure what concentration would be recommended to clean calcium stains. But 1+3 should be about 1-2% acetic acid for most grocery store brands.

Michael, excellent! I guess I was just a bit concerned about soaking a negative in vinegar! I will certainly give it a try, the negative is worthless to me in its current state. And the thing is, it's such a great image!

 

[michaelbsc]

Michael, excellent! I guess I was just a bit concerned about soaking a negative in vinegar! I will certainly give it a try, the negative is worthless to me in its current state. And the thing is, it's such a great image!

Just make sure you use distilled vinegar, not the cider vinegar.

Frankly, when I was a kid I used vinegar as a stop bath. What's the difference in food grade acetic acid in a bottle of vinegar and photo grade acetic acid from a chemical supply house? None that the film knows about.

The local druggist gave me the 1+3 proportion when I was trying to buy photo chemicals. In the tiny town I grew up in the drug store was where you bought any kind of chemicals except farm chemicals.

 

[DWThomas]

Stop bath is dilute acetic acid. I would probably mix some fresh for this operation, as opposed to risking some contaminant from a used batch. (And I suspect distilled white vinegar these days is pretty pure -- more industrial than food stuff.)

 

[brian steinberger]

Stop bath is dilute acetic acid. I would probably mix some fresh for this operation, as opposed to risking some contaminant from a used batch. (And I suspect distilled white vinegar these days is pretty pure -- more industrial than food stuff.)

Would the stop bath need to be diluted more than normal?

 

[DWThomas]

Would the stop bath need to be diluted more than normal?

I don't really know, but if it were me I'd probably try half the normal strength and see what it does. If the marks are calcium deposits, the strength would probably reflect in the time needed to get results rather than any particular threshold effect. My main point is that it is something we usually slosh film through anyway. And of course, I'd vote for a decent wash afterward.

 

[michaelbsc]

... if it were me I'd probably try half the normal strength and see what it does. ... I'd vote for a decent wash afterward.

I wouldn't even bother to cut it in half if you use Stop Bath. What's the difference? You're not going to damage the negative any more than normal processing, and the extra acetic acid is either going to work better or do nothing.

If you cut the concentration of anything I'd look at cutting the PhotoFlo.

I use the Ilford product instead of Kodak's (got a good deal on a bottle and it seems to last a lifetime) and I find that even half the bottle's recommendation still makes more suds than I like. I use it at about 25% the recommended dose.

 

[michaelbsc]

And if you happen to use one of the low odor stop baths it isn't acetic acid. It's citric acid, and that's unlikely to help as much with the calcium stains. It will help, but not as well as acetic.

Both vinegar and citric acid cleaners are used to clean coffee pots, and there the offending material is the same suspected calcium salts. But don't use a coffee pot cleaner. It may very well eat holes in the film base.

 

[Bob-D659]

Nope, a 2-2.5% solution is very good at dissolving mineral deposits. Use in your coffee maker, crusty flower vases(not lead crystal ones), etc, if you make it with non indicating acetic acid.

 

[Jim Noel]

Photo-flo on the reels will become a catalyst and somewhere along the line will begin to cause the problems you are having.
Never put reels in Photo Flo.
The only thing to do now is scrub the reels in very hat water with a stiff brush.
Throw away the PF and get some LFN - the problem is solved.
When you have hundreds of students going through the darkroom ieach year for 20 years it doesn't take long to know what works and what doesn't.

 

[Ian Grant]

Good advice, even on the emulsion side?

Well it doesn't affect the emulsion which is why Acetic acid is used as stop bath.

Dilute Hydrochloric acid will work as well, a 2% solution, again with no ill effects.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

Photo-flo on the reels will become a catalyst and somewhere along the line will begin to cause the problems you are having.
Never put reels in Photo Flo.
The only thing to do now is scrub the reels in very hat water with a stiff brush.
Throw away the PF and get some LFN - the problem is solved.
When you have hundreds of students going through the darkroom ieach year for 20 years it doesn't take long to know what works and what doesn't.

I disagree completely with you and Bob about not putting reels in Phtoflo, not all products are the same though.

However I strongly advise good washing of reels with hot water, there's also a slow build up of gelatin, I soak my Paterson reels in biological washing powder once every 6 months or so.

The problem with long chain detergents is they don't wash off properly with cold water.

So either do as Bob advises or wash the reels well in warm/hot water after being in Photoflo, both ways prevents any detergent build up.

Ian

 

[Ian David]

Brian
They look very much like drying marks to me. If they are on the emulsion side, I don't think you will get them out with acetic acid or anything else, as they are essentially in the emulsion, as you observed. I have a number of very similar neg strips from my old battles with this issue.
In my experience, the most important thing with Photoflo is that it must be very thoroughly mixed in with your water before you put any film in the solution. You know how dishwashing liquid behaves when you put it in the hot water? Until it is thoroughly mixed in, little 'strands' of detergent can be seen swirling around. The consistency of Photoflo is much the same.
Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian, Acetic acid can often remove quite bad calcium deposits on the emulsion side. The negative need to be soaked in water first to let the gelatin swell.

Ian

 

[Ian David]

Ian, Acetic acid can often remove quite bad calcium deposits on the emulsion side. The negative need to be soaked in water first to let the gelatin swell.

Ian

Thanks Ian - that is good to know for future reference. But I guess it won't help Brian if these are not calcium deposits. He said he is using distilled water, so I assumed that this is probably not a water quality issue.
Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

Another post with good advice , what is lfn though? I have only used Kodak pf with over the years

Photo-flo on the reels will become a catalyst and somewhere along the line will begin to cause the problems you are having.
Never put reels in Photo Flo.
The only thing to do now is scrub the reels in very hat water with a stiff brush.
Throw away the PF and get some LFN - the problem is solved.
When you have hundreds of students going through the darkroom ieach year for 20 years it doesn't take long to know what works and what doesn't.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Ian , I rarely disagree with you but I am with Jim here. I have found problems with pf on the reels and stopped doing this very early in my career.
I have found a buildup and a the possibility of not being able to roll the film on the reels.
The solution is a major cleanup with hot water and therefore we hand scroll the film through the pf .

I disagree completely with you and Bob about not putting reels in Phtoflo, not all products are the same though.

However I strongly advise good washing of reels with hot water, there's also a slow build up of gelatin, I soak my Paterson reels in biological washing powder once every 6 months or so.

The problem with long chain detergents is they don't wash off properly with cold water.

So either do as Bob advises or wash the reels well in warm/hot water after being in Photoflo, both ways prevents any detergent build up.

Ian

 

[michaelbsc]

I have found problems with pf on the reels and stopped doing this very early in my career.
I have found a buildup and a the possibility of not being able to roll the film on the reels.
The solution is a major cleanup with hot water and therefore we hand scroll the film through the pf .

While I'm simply a home user, not a large volume guy at all, I find that occasionally stuffing my reels in the dishwasher top rack with no soap in the machine keeps them pretty clean.

I put my glassware on the bottom rack, the plastic stuff on the top rack, set the machine for normal with no heat drying, leave out the detergent, and let it run through the cycle.

I concede this isn't really feasible for a commercial lab, but it works for me.

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian , I rarely disagree with you but I am with Jim here. I have found problems with pf on the reels and stopped doing this very early in my career.
I have found a buildup and a the possibility of not being able to roll the film on the reels.
The solution is a major cleanup with hot water and therefore we hand scroll the film through the pf .

Bob, I agree with the build up particularly with Paterson & similar reels but my experience is that much of this is gelatin and that builds up regardless.

There's also big differences in wetting agents and water quality which may be a reason why we & others differ in practice. Even when I worked commercially we always kept films on the reels with no issues. I'd add I've never used Kodak Phot-Flo though.

There's no right or wrong it's what works for individuals ultimately.

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

Water quality, is a biggie which adds its own complexitys.

Bob, I agree with the build up particularly with Paterson & similar reels but my experience is that much of this is gelatin and that builds up regardless.

There's also big differences in wetting agents and water quality which may be a reason why we & others differ in practice. Even when I worked commercially we always kept films on the reels with no issues. I'd add I've never used Kodak Phot-Flo though.

There's no right or wrong it's what works for individuals ultimately.

Ian

 

[fotch]

.......I have found a buildup and a the possibility of not being able to roll the film on the reels.
The solution is a major cleanup with hot water and therefore we hand scroll the film through the pf .

Its easier to scroll the film through the PF than to hand scrub reels. That is what I do also.

 

[brian steinberger]

Ok, so I'm planning on trying LFN. I've ordered some. Is the key to take the reel out of the tank when finished washing, fill the tank with distilled water, put two drops or so of LFN, mix, then dip the film? This is could have been my problem all along, as I would always empty the tank after the wash, pour distilled water in over the reel, then put photo-flo (too much apparently) in on top of that and lift the film in and out of the tank a few times. I always assumed doing so would mix the photo-flo into the water.

 

[brian steinberger]

I'm also assuming my stains on the film are from too much photo-flo, or improperly mixing photo-flo. I may still dip the film in stop bath though, as a last desperate attempt to save the negative. Thanks so much for your guys help!

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Brian,

Just a note that on average I tend to have the most drying issues with 35mm, '120' somewhere in the middle, and sheet film the least.

Tom

 

[MattKing]

Ok, so I'm planning on trying LFN. I've ordered some. Is the key to take the reel out of the tank when finished washing, fill the tank with distilled water, put two drops or so of LFN, mix, then dip the film? This is could have been my problem all along, as I would always empty the tank after the wash, pour distilled water in over the reel, then put photo-flo (too much apparently) in on top of that and lift the film in and out of the tank a few times. I always assumed doing so would mix the photo-flo into the water.

Brian:

I use a separate plastic container for the Photo-Flo step. I mix the Photo-Flo working solution up while the film is washing (12 drops from a small drop dispenser per 200ml of water, well mixed) and take the film off the reels before putting it into the Photo-Flo solution.

The film spends a couple of minutes in the Photo-Flo solution - enough time to get the reels and tank washed and draining to dry .