Drying marks with Ilford 120 FP4 and HP5??

[brian steinberger]

This is the second time (that I've noticed anyway) of what I believe are drying marks on the last frame out of my Mamiya 6. I have attached a section of the negative. This negative was taken on FP4. I have outlines the marks with red.

The last frame on the roll is the frame that is on the bottom when the film is hanging to dry. What's weird is that if it were drying marks I would think you would be able to see them on either side of the film when reflecting light off the surface of the negative, and I cannot, yet when I view the negative on the light table, there's the squiggly lines.

Could this be a case of all the photo-flo and other water flowing to the bottom of the film and creating this on the last frame?

Could this be using too much photo-flo? I also used distilled water.

Can I possibly save this negative? Maybe re-fixing?

Anyone encountered this before??

 

[markbarendt]

I've started hanging all my films at an angle rather than vertically, it has helped.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Brian,

I came across this problem earlier in the year with T-Max 400 so it isn't purely ILFORD related; however it was at a time when I experienced issues with not sufficiently washing out 'Ilfotol' (a photo-flo equivalent) from the Jobo film reels. Another issue I've seen probably attributable to wetting agent are bubble marks on the negative.

Tom

 

[brian steinberger]

Brian,

I came across this problem earlier in the year with T-Max 400 so it isn't purely ILFORD related; however it was at a time when I experienced issues with not sufficiently washing out 'Ilfotol' (a photo-flo equivalent) from the Jobo film reels. Another issue I've seen probably attributable to wetting agent are bubble marks on the negative.

Tom

Tom, interesting. Are you saying that if the film reels are not properly washed after a session then the next roll loaded onto it is at risk? When would these marks happen then?

 

[Bob Carnie]

Looks like a photoflow issue to me.

dip in the photoflow and immediately hold on a angle, too much PF can be an issue as well as foam on top.

Tom, interesting. Are you saying that if the film reels are not properly washed after a session then the next roll loaded onto it is at risk? When would these marks happen then?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Tom, interesting. Are you saying that if the film reels are not properly washed after a session then the next roll loaded onto it is at risk? When would these marks happen then?

Probably. However these issues are rather difficult to control for since once I found the problem I wanted to solve it.

Tom

 

[brian steinberger]

Thanks guys, maybe I should invest in a dropper and just put 2 or so drops of photo-flo per roll?

And Bob, should I just be dipping in the photo-flo? No agitation? I usually leave it in the photo-flo for 30 sec or so. And you mean hold at an angle, you mean the reel with the roll on it as soon you take it out of the photo-flo?

 

[dpurdy]

I used to worry about the water marks with photo flo and finally switched to edwals LFN. Never a mark since.
Dennis

 

[Rick A]

I use Edwal LFN and havent experienced those marks. The instructions for LFN call for one drop per liter of water. I mix one capful of 90% isopropyl alcohol with one drop LFN to distilled water to make one liter solution.

 

[brian steinberger]

I guess the question really is, are these drying marks? Like I said, you can't see any evidence on the film itself, it's part of the image.

 

[MarcoGiardini]

why the alcohol??

 

[Rick A]

why the alcohol??

I read somewhere that it displaces water and helps speed drying. I've been using this combo for several monthe, and it seems to work well.

 

[warrenbruce]

i use a proper photo sponge to remove excess water when i hang the strips to dry which has stopped the same problem i use to have. good luck,warrenbruce

 

[brian steinberger]

I'm going to give Edwal LFN a try. Also, I'm going to make sure my reels are well rinsed after each session.

I am still curious though, since I thought drying marks would be curable by re-soaking the film. Am I wrong?

 

[George Collier]

Brian - your final PFlo rinse (or whatever your final bath is) should not be on a reel, but dipped "by hand", so to speak. Most folks I know "see-saw" the film in a large loop from left to right, then hang.
I use PFlo, but I also use a graphic arts wipe called "Webril Pads", which come in a roll that will last a very long time. It's like a very tightly compressed cotton, like felt. I fold up the webril into a small pad, dip into the PFlo, and use the empty film processing tank to "roll" the excess out of it. Then gently swab (one pass, one direction) each side of the film from top to bottom, changing sides of the pad from e-side to base side. I'll use one pad for two films, turning it inside out, but more rolls than that I use another pad. I've never had any issues with this method. Sheet film I just hang diagonally.

 

[Rick A]

I leave my film on the spiral and soak in LFN, then give the spiral a good shake and hang my film. I rinse the spiral in hot tap water for clean-up. I've been doing this for years and haven't had any problems with spots or sticky reels.

 

[Ian Grant]

It's fine to leave the film on the reel, in fact it's safer.

However in this case the OP needs to used de-ionised or distilled water for the final rinses, it's a glaring hard water issue.

BTW Rick alcohol is great for drying film but if you bathe in 3-4 baths each with higher alcohol content the last 98%+ the film dries two minutes later Getting that grade alcohol is the issue though

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

Brian

I never put the reels in the photoflow.

hold both ends of the film, rocker it in the liquid, pull out in an even determined pull and hold at an angle to let water go off the film, clip and put in dryer.
this should be a very fast and defined pull through the photoflow, I rock for about 30 seconds one roll at a time.

Thanks guys, maybe I should invest in a dropper and just put 2 or so drops of photo-flo per roll?

And Bob, should I just be dipping in the photo-flo? No agitation? I usually leave it in the photo-flo for 30 sec or so. And you mean hold at an angle, you mean the reel with the roll on it as soon you take it out of the photo-flo?

 

[Bob Carnie]

If the marks are on the base you can get them off, if they are on the emulsion side another story.

I'm going to give Edwal LFN a try. Also, I'm going to make sure my reels are well rinsed after each session.

I am still curious though, since I thought drying marks would be curable by re-soaking the film. Am I wrong?

 

[Ian Grant]

If the marks are on the base you can get them off, if they are on the emulsion side another story.

A bathe in dilute acetic acid can often dissolve the calcium salts causing the problems followed by a good wash and rinse with deionised/distilled water & photo-flo.

Ian

 

[chimneyfinder]

A little while ago I used some Ilford wetting agent that I had for a few years and had some fairly random drying marks. I guessed it had 'gone off' and used a new bottle of Tetenal Mirasol and no more marks. Wetting agent tends to last so long in terms of usage that I overlooked how long I had had it and so put the marks down to that.

 

[brian steinberger]

It's fine to leave the film on the reel, in fact it's safer.

However in this case the OP needs to used de-ionised or distilled water for the final rinses, it's a glaring hard water issue.

BTW Rick alcohol is great for drying film but if you bathe in 3-4 baths each with higher alcohol content the last 98%+ the film dries two minutes later Getting that grade alcohol is the issue though

Ian

Ian, I am using distilled water and photo flo for the final rinse. I think I just may have been using too much photo-flo and it ran down the film and accumulated on the final frame. Is there a household acetic acid I can pick up at a local store to soak it in? I can't tell which side of the film it's on, like I said it appears to be IN the film

 

[michaelbsc]

The active ingredient in distilled (white) vinegar is acetic acid.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Good advice, even on the emulsion side?

A bathe in dilute acetic acid can often dissolve the calcium salts causing the problems followed by a good wash and rinse with deionised/distilled water & photo-flo.

Ian

 

[brian steinberger]

The active ingredient in distilled (white) vinegar is acetic acid.

Is it feasible to soak the film in white vinegar to attempt to remove the deposit?