Drying Marks are "drying me nuts" !

[cliveh]

If your last rinse is distilled water, as already said you should have no drying marks. Have you thought about taking the Photo flo out of the equation?

 

[Bill Burk]

I believe the secret to my success is the 5x7 tray of (reverse osmosis) filtered water with a little Photo-Flo. Try for no foam/bubbles. Those are "bad". Just gently agitate tray watching for the swirls to diminish.

I wash in plain (single-stage filter) tap water with film on the reels. Then after the wash is done I take the film off the reel and see-saw through the tray of water with Photo-Flo. No particular time just a couple see-saws then immediately hang.

Haven't given much thought to how much but you can immediately see the sheeting is going to be all right.

I think your problem might be leaving the film on the reel. Take it out then through the wetting agent at the concentration you feel good with.

 

[albada]

I get no watermarks by following a procedure similar to Brian Steinberger's: My last rinse is a soak in distilled water (bought at Vons) for a few minutes, and NO photo-flo. While it is soaking, I carefully dry the outside of the tank (lid is already off), and dry my fingers. So when I pull out the reel, there is no tap water nearby. I then shake the reel of couple of times to remove loose water, and then hang to dry.

Mark Overton

 

[mpirie]

Does anyone have the luxury of an air-knife?

You know the hand-dryers that are in common use nowadays that direct a blade of high speed air to help dry your hands?

Seems to me that regardless of the dilutions of wetting agent or use of distilled water.....the problem is water remaining on the film.......so if we cannot touch the film for fear of scratching, then high speed air could help by removing the majority of surface water before hanging up to dry.

I wonder if my wife has a spare hair dryer where the heater has failed

Mike

 

[bvy]

I think your problem might be leaving the film on the reel. Take it out then through the wetting agent at the concentration you feel good with.

This is actually one of the changes I've made as a result of this thread. Also, I'm doing a longer final soak in distilled water before the Photo Flo step. I was wiping the base side of the film with a wet finger in one long stroke, but that was producing mixed results. I'm also back to the prescribed dilution of 1+200.

 

[bvy]

Does anyone have the luxury of an air-knife?

You know the hand-dryers that are in common use nowadays that direct a blade of high speed air to help dry your hands?

Seems to me that regardless of the dilutions of wetting agent or use of distilled water.....the problem is water remaining on the film.......so if we cannot touch the film for fear of scratching, then high speed air could help by removing the majority of surface water before hanging up to dry.

I wonder if my wife has a spare hair dryer where the heater has failed

Mike

The risk there, I think, would be blowing dust on to wet film. And hair dryers are dust magnets.

 

[bvy]

Bvy, let me make this easy for you. DITCH THE PHOTO-FLO!!!!

I was down this exact road a few years ago. Those marks are definitely from photo flo. I have a long thread on here about my problem. Same as yours. Many recommended I try a simple distilled water bath after wash. That's all it took. My procedure is simple. After wash I fill the tank with distilled water (I use target distilled water. Believe it or not I still got some marks from using Walmart distilled water), agitate 20 times then let sit for 1 minute. Dump and fill tank again with distilled water. Agitate 20 times, let sit for 1 minute. Tank out reel and tilt at 45 degree angle to let water drain. Take film off and hang in dust free area. Don't touch the film with anything! Just leave it alone. I built a film drying cabinet for this purpose to minimize dust and I never get any drying marks at all anymore.

You can keep messing around with photo flo if you like. I tried everything and always got marks with it. Sometimes the simplest way is the best!

I don't dislike this idea and I'm all about simplifying things. I sometimes skip the Photo Flo step with film that I shoot to test a camera or developer or something (i.e. won't be printing or keeping). What I usually see is beads of water that sit on the film and can't be shaken off. These are what I thought produced drying spots.

 

[mgb74]

A couple of thoughts:

1. As I understand, most "distilled" water is no longer steam distilled; instead it's processed by reverse osmosis. It's possible a different brand might work better. If you had access to a small quantity of lab grade distilled water, it would be worthwhile as a test.
2. It's possible that the drying marks are caused by contaminants in the air deposited on the water on the film as it dried. How clean is the area in which the film dries? If not in an enclosed area, is there much air flow?

 

[brian steinberger]

I don't dislike this idea and I'm all about simplifying things. I sometimes skip the Photo Flo step with film that I shoot to test a camera or developer or something (i.e. won't be printing or keeping). What I usually see is beads of water that sit on the film and can't be shaken off. These are what I thought produced drying spots.

You should have no water spots from multiple distilled water final rinses. There will be no minerals left in the film (from the tap water) to deposit on the film. It's simple, and it works. I disagree with those who say a distilled water only final rinse will still leave marks. In my experience that's simply not true. The key is to let the film sit in the distilled water for a time to let the minerals in the film the wash water leach out. I do this process twice and have never had a mark. I must say I'm only shooting 120. So I'm not sure about 35mm. Doubt it would be any different.

 

[bvy]

You should have no water spots from multiple distilled water final rinses. There will be no minerals left in the film (from the tap water) to deposit on the film. It's simple, and it works. I disagree with those who say a distilled water only final rinse will still leave marks. In my experience that's simply not true. The key is to let the film sit in the distilled water for a time to let the minerals in the film the wash water leach out. I do this process twice and have never had a mark. I must say I'm only shooting 120. So I'm not sure about 35mm. Doubt it would be any different.

I think we're talking about two kinds of drying marks. Your approach should remedy drying marks from deposits in the water. I don't want those either, but I'm talking more about drying marks caused by uneven drying -- i.e. the area under a standing bead of water will dry more slowly than the area around it leaving a visible mark along the border.

 

[cliveh]

I think we're talking about two kinds of drying marks. Your approach should remedy drying marks from deposits in the water. I don't want those either, but I'm talking more about drying marks caused by uneven drying -- i.e. the area under a standing bead of water will dry more slowly than the area around it leaving a visible mark along the border.

Don't worry about droplets of water clinging to the film when you hang it up to dry. If the last bath was distilled water, even those big drops will dry away without leaving any drying marks.

 

[cliveh]

Just be careful not to replace one drying mark problem with another. Drying without a wetting agent can potentially give rise to "differential drying" marks. (see pp. 25-26 of Kodak tech pub O3 http://wwwau.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/o3/o3.pdf).

Michael, with all due respect, a wetting agent is not required and differential drying is not a problem as long as you are prepared to wait until the whole film is dry.

 

[Kino]

Michael, with all due respect, a wetting agent is not required and differential drying is not a problem as long as you are prepared to wait until the whole film is dry.

With equal due respect, I disagree. Differential drying marks are very real and don't disappear without re-wetting the emulsion and re-drying at an even rate.

 

[cliveh]

Why

With equal due respect, I disagree. Differential drying marks are very real and don't disappear without re-wetting the emulsion and re-drying at an even rate.

Why would a film not dry out, regardless of the size of water droplets, if left for 24 hours or more?

 

[brian steinberger]

Don't worry about droplets of water clinging to the film when you hang it up to dry. If the last bath was distilled water, even those big drops will dry away without leaving any drying marks.

Agree 100%.

I never experienced any of these "differential drying marks" so I don't even know what they would look like. I've experienced those from mineral deposits on the the film and those marks from photo flo. The OP is definitely experiencing those from photo flo. Using distilled water as I've outlined solved my problem.

 

[bvy]

Agree 100%.

I never experienced any of these "differential drying marks" so I don't even know what they would look like. I've experienced those from mineral deposits on the the film and those marks from photo flo. The OP is definitely experiencing those from photo flo. Using distilled water as I've outlined solved my problem.

I would expect a thorough rewash to get rid of marks left by water deposits. I did that with my film and they're still there. Differential drying marks look like (I thought) physical deformations in the film --raised bumps or ripples. They're harder or impossible to get rid of. I don't see those on my film, but they could be so subtle that they show up in scans but are invisible when inspecting the film. So I don't know. Half the battle for me might be identifying the type of marks I have.

 

[brian steinberger]

I would expect a thorough rewash to get rid of marks left by water deposits. I did that with my film and they're still there. Differential drying marks look like (I thought) physical deformations in the film --raised bumps or ripples. They're harder or impossible to get rid of. I don't see those on my film, but they could be so subtle that they show up in scans but are invisible when inspecting the film. So I don't know. Half the battle for me might be identifying the type of marks I have.

Yea I have never had ripples or anything like that. That sounds extreme. Maybe if the film dried too fast, say in a very very dry environment something like that couldn't happen? I steam my film drying cabinet just before hanging the film to dry. This keeps dust to nil, and also helps promote slower drying.

As for removing marks left from water deposits, a quick soak in stop bath removes them immediately, followed by a wash.

I am 99.9% certain your marks are from too much photo flo.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Differential drying marks are very real and almost impossible to get rid of. When the emulsion dries at different rates it creates tension/stretching along the line of interface which can permanently deform the emulsion and create areas of differing density. The whole reason wetting agents were developed in the first place was to deal with this problem.

Too much Photo Flo and too much mineral content in the water (including softening agents) will result in deposits that spot/streak the film.

These are two different problems; taking precautions for both should be standard darkroom practice. So, if your water has minerals, use distilled water for an extended final soak and with the wetting agent (these two steps can be combined) and make sure you are using your wetting agent at an optimum dilution (using the manufacturer's recommendation as a starting point, of course). Drying marks should then be no more problem.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Cholentpot]

I use flo.

I take a drinking straw and dip it in the concentrate catching a drop or two. Soak for a minute then hang. Soak and squeeze out a glasses rag and run down the film a few times. Crystal clear negs and no dust or hair. .

 

[cliveh]

Differential drying marks are very real and almost impossible to get rid of. When the emulsion dries at different rates it creates tension/stretching along the line of interface which can permanently deform the emulsion and create areas of differing density. The whole reason wetting agents were developed in the first place was to deal with this problem.

I don't understand this, as it is something I have never been aware of, or noticed as any detrimental effect on the film.

 

[Blurryimages]

Hey,

My advise would be to use this Film Cleaner:

- Ammonia 28%, concentrated - 0.16oz or 5.0ml
- Distilled water 3fl oz or 95.0ml
- Alcohol, isopropyl to make 32fl oz or 1.0 liter

Apply by wiping film base gently with cotton, photo wipes, microfiber. Will work!

All above from Darkroom Cookbook - thanks to its author!

Slawek
www.blurryimages.com

 

[Adrian Bacon]

This may or may not help, but it’s what I do with BW film:

I use white distilled vinegar and tap water mixed 1:1 with just enough Johnson&johnson baby shampoo added that it starts to feel slippery when I stick my index finger and thumb into the mix and rub them together. I mix a liter up and use the same liter to final rinse all the film I did in that batch.

What you want is for the final rinse to sheet off the film before it evaporates.

Why does this work? The vinegar (which is a known good thing for removing water stains from glass) keeps most if not all the stuff that would leave a stain dissolved in suspension, the baby shampoo is a surfactant which makes the water sheet off instead of form droplets.

The other part of the equation is drying time. You want the final rinse to sheet off before it evaporates. This means don’t dry it out too fast or use the salad spinner method to spin the final wash off as fast as possible. It is in fact possible to dry too fast. The point of the photo flo/surfactant is to make the water sheet so that it runs off instead of forming droplets, if you evaporate the final rinse off before it runs off, boom! Spots and crud on the film.

Could you use distilled water? Sure, but it’s getting harder and harder to find distilled water that was actually distilled and not just heavily filtered. I’m already buying white vinegar for my stop bath, so for me it’s simpler to drop yet another thing to buy (distilled water) and just use more vinegar. I’ve largely migrated over to commercial developers (D76/flexicolor) so have pretty much dropped the whole distilled water thing.

Hope this helps

 

[Blurryimages]

Recently I've discovered by a chance that when I left my film in Photo-Flo bath for 35 minutes and then dried it out as usual, film didn't have any smudges or marks! Since that moment I started to keep my films for at least 10 minutes in that bath and problems vapoured!

It's worth to try my method too, I think.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Recently I've discovered by a chance that when I left my film in Photo-Flo bath for 35 minutes and then dried it out as usual, film didn't have any smudges or marks! Since that moment I started to keep my films for at least 10 minutes in that bath and problems vapoured!

It's worth to try my method too, I think.

Most drying issues are due to drying too quickly thinking that a faster dry time decreases spots/crud, when it’s actually that quicker dry that’s evaporating the final rinse before it has a chance to run off on its own. If you have the right amount of surfactant in the mix, you can literally watch it run off and leave nothing behind. It takes time, but it does happen.

 

[mgb74]

This may or may not help, but it’s what I do with BW film:

I use white distilled vinegar and tap water mixed 1:1 with just enough Johnson&johnson baby shampoo added that it starts to feel slippery when I stick my index finger and thumb into the mix and rub them together. I mix a liter up and use the same liter to final rinse all the film I did in that batch. ...

I would wonder about the long term effect of the acid vinegar on the negative.