Drying and flattening larger fiber and RC paper

bonk · Mar 5, 2021

I know this has been asked before but I can’t seem to find a satisfying answer for my particular situation.

I am about to print my first 4x5 negatives and some of them I would like to print on larger fiber based paper at 50,8x61cm (20x24“) and some using RC paper of the same size.
So far I have only printed on smaller RC paper. I don’t have any experience in printing on fiber paper and also never printed this large at all.
How do I dry those large sheets and how do I flatten those fiber sheets? Does it make a difference whether the surface of the paper is glossy or not?
I do own a small darkroom (about 16m2) so I could build or install stuff in there as long as it doesn’t break the bank.

koraks · Mar 6, 2021

I always tape my prints to glass with gummed paper tape. With rc I don't bother; it doesn't curl anyway. Well, most rc papers don't, at least.

hadeer · Mar 6, 2021

koraks said:
I always tape my prints to glass with gummed paper tape

Same here. Position the glass vertically and put the print on the glas when still wet. Then swipe it off with a rubber window swiper so it doesn't drip anymore and doesn't soften the tape. When printing, you have to leave a small margin on the print to accommodate the paper tape, but you need that for the frame anyway. During drying the print shrinks and flattens beautifully.

koraks · Mar 6, 2021

Exactly. Squeegeeing is necessary as excess water will mess up the tape. And it shortens drying time.
With big prints, make sure the glass is fairly sturdy. It's surprising how much force drying paper exerts as it contracts. No need for insanely heavy glass though; I just use a couple of old mirrors for drying my prints.

Wait for the prints to be completely dry (around 24 hours in my experience), then cut the tape along the edges of the underlying paper/print. The remaining strips of tape can be removed by placing the glass level and thoroughly wetting the tape. Let sit for 10 minutes and pull off the tape. Clean glass and you're ready for the next round.

radiant · Mar 6, 2021

My method is hang dry the paper well (12 hours), then moist the paper back and put between two MDF sheets (10-20mm thick) with weight on it. Keep for few hours. Comes pretty flat, at least enough flat for me.

20x24 might be a bit more work because you need some good weights on top. But I don't see why my method wouldn't work on big prints..

grain elevator · Mar 6, 2021

An you share a European brand or source for the tape you use please? I want to try this.
There is a huge thread about this somewhere btw!
One fairly easy way to deal with baryta paper and what I've done so far is hanging to dry, two sheets held together back to back with clothespins. They don't curl too violently this way. Then I take them down, slightly moisten the backs and flatten under heavy objects for several hours - days. The easel is a great flat, heavy object for this. I haven't done such large prints though.
I suggest for your first experience with baryta paper, better use smaller formats. It's more fragile than RC paper when wet. And of course needs to be washed much longer.

Bikerider · Mar 6, 2021

Because I don't have the luxury of running water in my darkroom I have my print washer In the past I have usually left the print to dry at room temperature. Yes it curls but I can flatten it so it can be mounted by ironing it face down on an ironing board. That never fails

Resin coated prints don't usually curl when drying

ic-racer · Mar 6, 2021

I use an old heated dryer for test prints. The final prints get dried on screens. Then flattened in an inexpensive press I got in a trade. I did not really want the press, because I don't dry-mount anything. But once I figured out it flattens prints, It is indispensable in my darkroom.

On the drying screens, the RC prints go emulsion side UP and will dry flat that way (as in the picture).

Fiber based prints dry emulsion down on the screens, otherwise there is a risk of folding over an edge when they go in the flattening press due to extreme curl.

koraks · Mar 6, 2021

grain elevator said:
An you share a European brand or source for the tape you use please? I want to try this

Can't tell you what brand I use, but every arts supply store is likely to carry it. That's how I get mine. It's used by water colorists to tape down the paper to the easel.

grain elevator · Mar 6, 2021

koraks said:
Can't tell you what brand I use, but every arts supply store is likely to carry it. That's how I get mine. It's used by water colorists to tape down the paper to the easel.

Thanks!

tezzasmall · Mar 6, 2021

I too bought my roll of brown PAPER tape from an art shop, but most general stationers / large magazine shops, sell it as well. And it's lasted me for ages!

One point not mentioned. When drying the FB prints, face them upwards. There's been another thread that I read recently about people having real difficulty trying to remove their prints from glass, when they've put them face down onto the glass to get a really glossy surface. 99% of the time it seems, that the print doesn't come off by itself and is therefore ruined.

Terry S

grain elevator · Mar 6, 2021

tezzasmall said:
I too bought my roll of brown PAPER tape from an art shop, but most general stationers / large magazine shops, sell it as well. And it's lasted me for ages!

One point not mentioned. When drying the FB prints, face them upwards. There's been another thread that I read recently about people having real difficulty trying to remove their prints from glass, when they've put them face down onto the glass to get a really glossy surface. 99% of the time it seems, that the print doesn't come off by itself and is therefore ruined.

Terry S

Thanks. Are you sure that tape is more or less archival?
Drying prints face down on a flat surface (let's call it cold ferrotyping?) requires a separating agent like a wax (as I learned in the thread you probably mean).

gone · Mar 6, 2021

You don't have to worry about the tape being archival grain. You'll be trimming it off after the print dries. Just go into any art supply store and ask for the brown paper tape that watercolourists use to tape their papers down. The tape isn't sticky on the roll, but becomes that way when you wet it. It comes in different widths, and it's better to go w/ the widest available because photo fiber prints exert a lot more force in their curl than any watercolour paper made.

I've been taping large fiber prints to the floor (large squares of ceramic tile), then cutting them loose the next day. Drying them on something that you can stand upright like the others are doing sounds like a better idea.

Don't underestimate the strength of the paper's desire to curl. If it's not taped down well, it will pull itself off the print or the drying surface and you'll have to re-wet the print and do it all over again. I've never taped the prints image surface down and wouldn't suggest trying it.

koraks · Mar 6, 2021

momus said:
I've never taped the prints image surface down and wouldn't suggest trying it.

I have. And there was much gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair.

eli griggs · Mar 7, 2021

Gummed brown or white paper tape is used to tape damp watercolour papers to shellacked, poly, etc smooth boards so the paper is held tightly down on the boards which the painter paints on.

It is no archival and, the stronger brown paper will impart acid to the art papers.

It is removed by wetting the paper with a damp/wet sponge/ rag/brush or fingers and the art papers will need the gum cleaned off in most cases.

I use this method and it's a good one, however, thinner photo FB papers, in my opinion, should tape be used, should either be held down with archival Linco Linen Tape, which is more narrow than the brown gummed tape, or good, acid free, 100% Kozo or other fine Japanese papers, such as Gampi fiber tissue and whole wheat starch powder, which is made in small, fresh amounts when you want it.

The Japanese handpapers are the strongest you'll likely find and you can tear them into ribbons of tape, easily.

By-the-way, you tear fine Japanese and Western papers made of natural fibers like Kozo, Gampi, Cotton or Linen, because if the papers are cut, they will leave a weakened border, which will degrade much more quickly than a pulled apart edge, which allows the fibers to part wholly and be much less likely to give fuzzy edges where cut edges fall apart, collect dirt and bacteria a home.

There is a particular process to tearing these good papers, including the 300 lb. 100% cotton Archers wc papers I use.

I believe I have already posted the method in detail, but I'll go over it again is anyone wants to know how to do it.

I'll add that those FB users that want to try tearing both art photo papers apart, should invest in to a proper sized beveled, steel straight edge, such as Graphic Chemical sells; they are perfect at a good price.

I hope this helps,
Eli

grain elevator · Mar 7, 2021

Thanks for the tape comments, I have my doubts about introducing unknown substances to wet prints, and be it just the borders, because diffusion. But I suppose if it's good enough for the watercolorists, it's good enough for me.
Eli, does the starch really bind before the print gets dry enough to excert much force? Seems like a good and cheap idea, one could use trimmings of starchy edges of photo paper from the previous batch of prints as the tape.

koraks · Mar 7, 2021

grain elevator said:
Thanks for the tape comments, I have my doubts about introducing unknown substances to wet prints, and be it just the borders, because diffusion.

I understand your concern and indeed, it may be valid. However, in my prints, I have seen no signs whatsoever of any substance diffusing outside the margin that has been taped. If you're concerned about this, simply trim off the taped edges. I generally don't; as said by someone else, those edges are convenient to have anyway when matting the prints. I never remove the tape from the print as rewetting the borders brings the risk of the paper becoming a bit wavy along the edges again, which for me defies the purpose. But with a little care, this can probably be prevented. I personally don't bother.

iakustov · Mar 7, 2021

Instead of taping, one could also use stapler / handheld tacker to tack on a piece of plywood. I did it for large prints, but I prefer to use hot dryer for 16''x20'' and smaller.

radiant · Mar 7, 2021

I think one could make a drying frame with plastic "clamps" holding the print against glass. Glue the glass on some base and drill holes for the clamps on the baseboard? No need for cutting, probably..

Arthurwg · Mar 7, 2021

[QUOTE="ic-racer, post: 2392464, member: 18971
Fiber based prints dry emulsion down on the screens, otherwise there is a risk of folding over an edge when they go in the flattening press due to extreme curl....

Is that rack of drying screens commercially available? I use screens as well, but mine are getting old. I also use a hot press that I bought from a frame shop that was going out of business.

grain elevator · Mar 7, 2021

vedostuu said:
I think one could make a drying frame with plastic "clamps" holding the print against glass. Glue the glass on some base and drill holes for the clamps on the baseboard? No need for cutting, probably..

Someone made something like this and presented it in a thread either here or at rff. It was all wood iirc, no need for glass.

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 7, 2021

When I make the occasional batch of 20x24s I just squeegee them to damp and lay them face up on a pile carpet - they are dry the next day and with only a minimal amount of curl at the edges. They dry-mount flat with no problems.

radiant · Mar 8, 2021

grain elevator said:
Someone made something like this and presented it in a thread either here or at rff. It was all wood iirc, no need for glass.

I need to try drying wet paper in middle of two MDF sheets. Moist paper don't stick, that I have tried many times.

ic-racer · Mar 8, 2021

Arthurwg said:
[QUOTE="ic-racer, post: 2392464, member: 18971
Fiber based prints dry emulsion down on the screens, otherwise there is a risk of folding over an edge when they go in the flattening press due to extreme curl....

Is that rack of drying screens commercially available? I use screens as well, but mine are getting old. I also use a hot press that I bought from a frame shop that was going out of business.

I was able to find this for sale without having to buy the baskets. Standard window screens will fit in the slots.

tezzasmall · Mar 9, 2021

vedostuu said:
I need to try drying wet paper in middle of two MDF sheets. Moist paper don't stick, that I have tried many times.

Only do this if they prints are not precious to you as MDF is full of lots of nasty chemicals, which will probably leach out into the paper...

Terry S

Drying and flattening larger fiber and RC paper

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