Dry plate direct positives? No bleach, no black backing.

Donald Qualls · Oct 30, 2021

YouTuber Lost Light Art has a new video up on direct positives from the Zebra dry plates he produces and sells (as far as I can tell, they're either the same as J. Lane blue-sensitive slow plates, or an otherwise similar ortho emulsion: ISO 2, hand coated).

Among other things he mentions, he recommends "underexposing" the plate by one or more stops to avoid highlights showing dark from the original exposure. This makes me wonder if it could be combined with J. Lane Speed Plates to get an effective speed high enough for things like street photography, action shots, and so forth (two stops would get to EI 100, and the ortho sensitivity makes the plates a much easier transition for those used to modern film).

No, obviously not a practical material and technique due to cost of the plates (several times the cost of sheet film that's panchro and 2-4 stops faster), but it might be a way to get some fun out of a 1920s or older plate camera, some variation from "one emulsion" that's available in some of the less common sizes (6.5x9, quarter and half plate, etc.). Also obviously, however, with a little experimentation the same technique ought to be applicable to common sheet films like FP4+, TMX, etc. No reason it wouldn't work with roll films, but the light exposure during development is harder to get even compared to sheet film in a tray.

Anyone done this, Sabatier process to a full positive (as opposed to the usual positive-on-negative "pseudo-solarized" effect done for an "artistic" look)?

abruzzi · Oct 30, 2021

thats a pretty neat looking process. I'm assuming that if you try to do it with a faster film (say ISO 100) you'll have to reduce the flash time, or light intensity? I'm not setup for dry plate, and it seem like the slowest 4x5 film I can get is maybe ISO 80, like the Catlabs (GP3?) stuff. (unless I try Adox CMS20, but since that has some of its own development issues, I don't know how well that would work.) I'm also guessing that you will have a narrow dynamic range, maybe in the same range as slide film maybe worse, but even in his last and best shot, there was solarization in the upper left corner., and that was a fairly low contrast scene.

removed account4 · Oct 30, 2021

Hi Donald

I had never heard of this person but am grateful for his video and you posting it here. I was thinking just this morning of doing exactly this what he is doing. I've had it on my list of things to do, but I won't be doing this with glass plates ... but with regular old paper negatives, shouldn't be too hard. I've done it before over the years, and had the urge to do it again. Sadly it was rainy most of the day so I wan't able to get outside, maybe tomorrow ?

Bob Carnie is a master of this process.
John

Donald Qualls · Nov 1, 2021

The YouTuber claims it works much better with (his) dry plates than with film. BTW, I did find verification on his Etsy store that these plates are ortho, not blue-sensitive like J. Lane Classic plates (J. Lane Speed plates are ortho).Given the amount of (expensive) experimentation required to nail down the process, however, I'm very much inclined to just shoot underexposed negatives and display them on black velvet to get the scattering positive.

As well, 1 second exposure at f/5.6 just won't stand up for me; I'd want at least the option to shoot hand held. On the other hand, his 4x5 dual plate holders look top notch -- 3D printed plastic parts, aluminum dark slide, exact replacement for common 4x5 film holders. Shipping from Central Europe seems likely to get slow/expensive, though...

removed account4 · Nov 1, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
The YouTuber claims it works much better with (his) dry plates than with film. BTW, I did find verification on his Etsy store that these plates are ortho, not blue-sensitive like J. Lane Classic plates (J. Lane Speed plates are ortho).Given the amount of (expensive) experimentation required to nail down the process, however, I'm very much inclined to just shoot underexposed negatives and display them on black velvet to get the scattering positive.

As well, 1 second exposure at f/5.6 just won't stand up for me; I'd want at least the option to shoot hand held. On the other hand, his 4x5 dual plate holders look top notch -- 3D printed plastic parts, aluminum dark slide, exact replacement for common 4x5 film holders. Shipping from Central Europe seems likely to get slow/expensive, though...

https://www.wljollysolarizationchemistryphotography.org/book-solarization-demystified
pretty much demystifies it just like the thesis suggests.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 1, 2021

@Donald Qualls: from the book @jnantz cited:

"Direct positive transparencies can be made by slight modification of the preceeding procedure. Use T- Max 100 in an exposure index range of 1600- 3200. (Again, at first bracket at half- stop intervals.) Use small tank processing, with all solutions at 20oC.

First developer. Dektol, 1 + 1. Six minutes, with 5- second agitation every 30 seconds.
Water rinse. Continuous agitation for 2 minutes.
Second developer. 25 mL of Dektol stock, 80 mL of water, 15 mL of Kodak Ektamatic S30 Stabilizer, and 42 mL of Kodak S2 Activator, all diluted to 250 mL. Nine minutes development; vigorous agitation for initial 15 seconds, then 2- second agitation every 60 seconds thereafter.
Dilute acetic acid stop- bath. One minute, with frequent agitation.
Kodak fix. Three minutes, with frequent agitation.
Rinse. About 15 minutes. Carefully wipe wet emulsion with cotton to remove silver scum before drying."

Kodak Ektamatic S30 Stabilizer
Weight %
Water 74.5
Ammonium thiocyanate 17.5
Acetic acid 8.0

Kodak S2 Activator
Weight %
Water 85-90
Potassium hydroxide 5-10
Potassium sulfite 1-5
Sodium sulfite 1-5
Potassium bromide < 1

On the inventor of this method: https://chemistry.berkeley.edu/news/william-l-jolly
Some examples of his work: https://www.wljollysolarizationchemistryphotography.org/gallery

Nodda Duma · Nov 1, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
The YouTuber claims it works much better with (his) dry plates than with film. BTW, I did find verification on his Etsy store that these plates are ortho, not blue-sensitive like J. Lane Classic plates (J. Lane Speed plates are ortho).Given the amount of (expensive) experimentation required to nail down the process, however, I'm very much inclined to just shoot underexposed negatives and display them on black velvet to get the scattering positive.

As well, 1 second exposure at f/5.6 just won't stand up for me; I'd want at least the option to shoot hand held. On the other hand, his 4x5 dual plate holders look top notch -- 3D printed plastic parts, aluminum dark slide, exact replacement for common 4x5 film holders. Shipping from Central Europe seems likely to get slow/expensive, though...

Nejc coats his plates with Foma emulsion. I don’t think they are ortho.

Another option is dry plate ambrotypes. Dev, stop, fix. Positive on black glass.

Working on final productionization to make them available.

mohmad khatab · Nov 2, 2021

I've already been trying to do that, in the coming days. But I was trying to do this with X-ray film (since it's the only photographic medium I'm sort of at all available). But there are some things that occupied me (as the camera I plan to use is not mine) and some other obstacles.
- But I feel a little surprised, he does the exposure less than required so that he does not have to use the bleaching stage.
- According to my humble opinion, I think that the correct exposure + bleaching stage will have better and repeatable results.

Donald Qualls · Nov 2, 2021

@Raghu Kuvempunagar I'm not sure what's going on with that Kodak process, but I suspect there's a bleach step that's not quoted -- two slightly different developers doesn't seem like Sabatier, in which the re-exposure takes place about halfway through development and development is completed in the same developer.

@Nodda Duma If Zebra plates are coated with panchro emulsion, why would he be able to show them developing under safelight in his video? Also, most liquid emulsions (including the Foma product, AFAIK) are either single- or multi-contrast print emulsion. His Etsy claims they're orthochromatic, which would lead to hate and discontent if they fog quickly under safelight. And yes, it's easier and produces a better result on black backing, whether black glass, black-coated metal plate, or transparent glass on black (velvet) backing -- but his way doesn't require stocking two kinds of plates and deciding, before you leave the darkroom, which to load into your plate holders.

There's no question in my mind that a bleach/expose/redevelop process will produce a "better" result -- none of those black highlights as seen in the upper left of his example, where sky was visible between the leaves, for instance -- but as he noted, this way also doesn't require chemicals that are difficult to obtain or illegal to use in some regions, merely the same plates you'd use for regular glass negatives, and standard developer, plus a calibrated level of underexposure and flash in development.

Nodda Duma · Nov 2, 2021

@Donald Qualls I didn’t say he coated them with panchro lol. Foma sells a basic unsensitized AgBrI emulsion emulsion. In addition the safelights he uses would fog ortho emulsion.

You can, of course, get similar results shooting digital. That should eliminate all inconveniences.

Donald Qualls · Nov 2, 2021

Nodda Duma said:
@Donald Qualls I didn’t say he coated them with panchro lol. Foma sells a basic unsensitized AgBrI emulsion emulsion. In addition the safelights he uses would fog ortho emulsion.

Aaaah. I didn't catch that you were saying he's overstating the spectral range. Yes, they might well be blue/UV-only like your slow plates; the yellow/amber safelight supports you (and it wouldn't work with Foma multigrade print emulsion, either, though it's okay with Ilford and Kodak, AFAIK).

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 2, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
@Raghu Kuvempunagar I'm not sure what's going on with that Kodak process, but I suspect there's a bleach step that's not quoted -- two slightly different developers doesn't seem like Sabatier, in which the re-exposure takes place about halfway through development and development is completed in the same developer.

No idea as I've not ever tried his technique myself. But it's not a technique that's too difficult to try and find out. 35mm is ideal for the initial experimentation, at least till everything starts falling into place.

removed account4 · Nov 2, 2021

Donald
Look through the Freestyle Catalog, they sell 2Kg cylinders of the emulsion (FOMA ) and it is sometimes on short date clearance for cheeps

Donald Qualls · Nov 2, 2021

@jnantz With no more free time than I have, I'll leave the coating and testing to @Nodda Duma and be happy to just load the plates. I've got a couple 9x12 plate cameras that need only pulling the film sheaths out of the holders to use them directly. I do very much like the idea of those 4x5 plate holders -- load and handle just like Riteway or similar film holders, but take glass -- but at $80 each (presumably plus shipping from Slovenia) I'll have to give them a pass for now. I might try printing a couple, though...

removed account4 · Nov 2, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I'll have to give them a pass for now. I might try printing a couple, though...

I believe Jason (Nodda Duma ) makes and sells them as well, and shipping from NH isn't as spendy as shipping from Slovenia.
The black glass plates area going to be a think of beauty!

Donald Qualls · Nov 2, 2021

jnantz said:
I believe Jason (Nodda Duma ) makes and sells them as well, and shipping from NH isn't as spendy as shipping from Slovenia.

Now I'll have to check. Two is plenty (not like the twenty or so film holders I have).

Edit: Apparently he doesn't make these himself (unless he's the one who does it for Chroma Camera) -- but not only are they a little less than the ones from Slovenia (and as noted, shipping from New Hampshire ought to be both much faster and much cheaper than from Slovenia), but I don't think the Slovenian ones have the "loaded" indicator that doubles as a starter for unloading. And there goes another month's allowance...

Nodda Duma · Nov 9, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Now I'll have to check. Two is plenty (not like the twenty or so film holders I have).

Edit: Apparently he doesn't make these himself (unless he's the one who does it for Chroma Camera) -- but not only are they a little less than the ones from Slovenia (and as noted, shipping from New Hampshire ought to be both much faster and much cheaper than from Slovenia), but I don't think the Slovenian ones have the "loaded" indicator that doubles as a starter for unloading. And there goes another month's allowance...

Rest assured the ChromaGraphica double dry plate holders are made right here in Brookline, and have been since the 2019 Kickstarter campaign ended. In fact, my employee in charge of their assembly just released another dozen new 4x5 holders today into inventory.

Steve Lloyd, myself, and my business partner Max designed these holders for the 2019 ChromaGraphica Kickstarter campaign. Hence the conglomeration of our respective business’ names in the branding. This was an equal partnering, born out of my desire to provide an economical plate holder to the dry plate community. The history of its development can be found right here on Photrio.

We designed both a dry plate holder (holds two plates) and a wet plate holder. Pictoriographica manufactures the dry plate holders and Chroma Camera manufactures the wet plate holders. However, we share a full partnership on the entire holder product line. It’s been an enjoyable and satisfying partnership, and I like to think the niche plate photography community has benefited from our combined creativity . Steve’s a good guy.

The Slovenian holders do not have the loaded plate indicator, which is a feature that Steve and I invented. They are also not injection-molded like the ChromaGraphica dry plate holders. However, they are nice in and of themselves, and do their job just fine.

markjwyatt · Nov 9, 2021

Very nice. I was thinking about this too (since I got my Ihagee folder, which accepts glass plates). What came to mind to me are "lantern slides".

Nodda Duma · Nov 9, 2021

A couple pics of the assembly workbench (a stack of holders ready for final inspection) and inventory of parts. Not very glamorous, but definitely “here”.

Donald Qualls · Nov 10, 2021

Excellent! Might be spring (income tax refund) before I can get some, but I've got a pair of those holders and at least one box of speed plates on my wish list now. I'm not really interested in direct positive (I'll do bleach reversal if I want lantern slides), but I've been interested in glass plates since I got my first plate camera back in 2002 and had to hunt around for film sheaths (Svema was still making them, then, for scientific applications like astronomy and holography, but I never got any of theirs because I had no way to develop them then).

markjwyatt · Nov 10, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Excellent! Might be spring (income tax refund) before I can get some, but I've got a pair of those holders and at least one box of speed plates on my wish list now. I'm not really interested in direct positive (I'll do bleach reversal if I want lantern slides), but I've been interested in glass plates since I got my first plate camera back in 2002 and had to hunt around for film sheaths (Svema was still making them, then, for scientific applications like astronomy and holography, but I never got any of theirs because I had no way to develop them then).

So you prefer a chemical route? Might gettrid of the localized solarization as well as some uncertainty: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/reversal-processing/

AgX · Nov 10, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I've been interested in glass plates since I got my first plate camera back in 2002 and had to hunt around for film sheaths (Svema was still making them, then, for scientific applications like astronomy and holography, but I never got any of theirs because I had no way to develop them then).

Maybe you mix up Svema with Slavich. In any case Slavich is still making plates for scientific/technical use.

Donald Qualls · Nov 10, 2021

Yep, I've done bleach/redevelop reversal before, though I'll probably switch to copper sulfate/ammonia bleach rather than the dichromate I've used in the past or permanganate that will likely result in the emulsion just lifting off the glass. The result, with Tri-X, was pretty decent slides (not perfect, the gray base of 35mm B&W gives a high Dmin).

I should mention that I might well try some on black glass for that ambrotype effect -- but for transparent positive, I'd surely want to avoid the dark highlights.

Donald Qualls · Nov 10, 2021

AgX said:
Maybe you mix up Svema with Slavich. In any case Slavich is still making plates for scientific/technical use.

You're probably correct -- I never paid that much attention, because they were priced out of my market at the time (high minimum orders and shipping from Russia were the killers, as I recall, but even the per-plate price was pretty steep).

I just googled them -- they are still offering glass plates, but only in holography emulsions. Not sure if those would even produce useful images -- it looks like they're approximately monochromatic sensitized for red or green.

Dry plate direct positives? No bleach, no black backing.

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency