Draw or photograph

cliveh · May 27, 2012

batwister said:
Ansel Adams did say photography is about knowing where to stand. From that I take that we are compelled to stop and stand when something has affected us, then we get the camera out. His quote for me is about intuition, not composition.

I would suggest that intuition and composition are inextricably linked.

Newt_on_Swings · May 27, 2012

cliveh said:
I would suggest that intuition and composition are inextricably linked.

I would also agree to this.

batwister · May 27, 2012

cliveh said:
I would suggest that intuition and composition are inextricably linked.

I suppose it depends on the photographer and I'm sure with reportage or street this is more or less the case, but in landscape my tendency at least will be to spend a good half an hour or more working and reworking a composition. I've also gone back to the same spot many times in different weather and photographed the same subject/scene. It's a matter of problem solving once I've chosen my subject and where to stand. Composition in landscape, for myself, is more often than not a very involved, methodical process. My intuition simply tells me "that tree in the distance looks like it might have potential". Intuition is about choosing my subject, not framing it.

cliveh · May 27, 2012

batwister said:
Intuition is about choosing my subject, not framing it.

I would suggest it is both as simultaneous recognition.

Old-N-Feeble · May 27, 2012

It's fairly obvious that different photographic genres require different balances of the same visual/mechanical/mental/intuitional/whatever tools. I've always preferred inanimate subjects so I can take my time with the image. I respect the skill required for quick spur-of-the-moment photography but that doesn't suit my personality. Also, I can become impatient with what I'm photographing or decide it's not worth a frame of film and walk away from it without it becoming irritated or insulted.

ETA: I can also point my camera and stare at it unemotionally for hours without it becoming creeped out and throwing a rock at me for punching me in the face for invading its space. I bear or mountain lion might eat me though.

batwister · May 27, 2012

cliveh said:
I would suggest it is both as simultaneous recognition.

Well, one of Cartier-Bresson mystical quotes, which I don't agree with. Certainly added to his enigma though! It's also been said about Bresson that the decisive moment was when he said "print that one!".

Personally I think Bresson's intuition told him where the action was, but we might be running into a problem of semantics here. Had another quick witted photographer found himself in the same place, he might have made a photograph just as fascinating... after a few frames. The composition part would of course be subjective, but I believe street photography is more a process of trial and error in this regard and the rest is good editing. I haven't seen Bresson's contact sheets however, so for all I know all his classic compositions could have been on one roll! In that case, I would agree with you.

I will say there is a recognition that "this composition works", but with landscape there's a good deal of construction before getting to that point, especially when you have only one sheet of film. With street, half a roll might be spent on one scene, hoping for that great shot. This is down to luck, while your intuition is keeping you there saying "something's gonna happen".

I think there's too much mysticism about the process of composition, especially with street photography and Bresson in particular. Composition for me is about constructing a message, in the same way a writer will construct a great sentence. In conversation sentence construction is intuitive, but in writing it's about logical construction... and I've really tried my best there

blansky · May 27, 2012

Yes, but with all this intuition and composition and seat of the pants photography vs scenics that don't move, there is also the fact about where a person is on their journey.

What passes as intuition could be experience. He does it now without thinking.

An experienced street photographer may not even realize that he's composing when in fact his brain did it as he noticed an interesting street scene. To someone watching it just looks like he stumbled on the shot.

Experienced scenic photographers are probably setting their tripod in the best possible place without much conscious thought.

The people like Adams and C-B had been doing this for years, and I doubt that their early work was great.

Vilk · May 28, 2012

C-B's early stuff was excellent--likely because he had been trained in drawing. my own practice fits the statement in question under either exegesis: i draw reasonably well and i rarely waste film on things i wouldn't draw. therefore, a strong vote for the statement's logic. elitist, maybe, it does makes achieving some kinds of results easier, certainly different, in ways inaccessible to non-draftsmen. those of you who take good photographs but don't draw, cut the excuses, get off you bum and learn to draw; with the heart-eye-brain pathway established, traininng the hand is a formality

Old-N-Feeble · May 28, 2012

RE art training: I drew a bit in high school and early college but gave it up... just as I did drafting. I could evoke enough life into my drawings and was technically accurate with my drafting... but gawd was I messy!!

By that time I already had several years of suffering through my own crappy photographic mistakes and waste so I was an okay photographer. However, I do believe those art classes helped me to be more discerning with what and how I photographed. They certainly proved to me that I'm NO artist!!

waynecrider · May 28, 2012

I find having just taken up painting, that my vision of a scene for a possible painting has changed from the way I view a possible photograph and has become more two dimensional in my minds eye; More or less, areas of color on a flat sheet. I'ts like I can alter my vision and see it without depth of field, not that DOF is not introduced thru process into the picture. It's an interesting perspective since in painting you must introduce dof whereas in photography it's a more or less automatic process that many times escaped my personal attention.

Darkroom317 · May 28, 2012

waynecrider said:
I find having just taken up painting, that my vision of a scene for a possible painting has changed from the way I view a possible photograph and has become more two dimensional in my minds eye; More or less, areas of color on a flat sheet. I'ts like I can alter my vision and see it without depth of field, not that DOF is not introduced thru process into the picture. It's an interesting perspective since in painting you must introduce dof whereas in photography it's a more or less automatic process that many times escaped my personal attention.

I just finished my first painting class. Same here. I also find that I notice forms and color a lot more around me than I did before. Of course I also took color studies this last semester so that also changed my vision.

blansky · May 28, 2012

I find I walk a lot better since I learned to drive a car.

waynecrider · May 28, 2012

Darkroom317 said:
I just finished my first painting class. Same here. I also find that I notice forms and color a lot more around me than I did before. Of course I also took color studies this last semester so that also changed my vision.

Yes definitively forms and color. They both take on a heightened awareness.

cliveh · May 28, 2012

Even prior to the discovery of the photographic process there were many drawings and paintings with that photographic look and I suppose drawing with the aid of a Camera Obscura or Lucida would give that optical view. I have never used a camera Lucida, but would like to give it a try. I wondered if its possible to make one from the prism in an old overhead projector.

MattKing · May 28, 2012

blansky said:
I find I walk a lot better since I learned to drive a car.

Does this mean you are finally using the sidewalk, rather than the middle of the road?

jp498 · May 28, 2012

MattKing said:
Does this mean you are finally using the sidewalk, rather than the middle of the road?

He probably bought a british car.

removed account4 · May 28, 2012

the quote really has nothing to do with drawing &c
or paring down a scene to its essential elements, it has to do
with being aware by habit/2nd nature or by force.
if you can't notice, or observe, whether it is some tree in a field, or people in the street
or in front of a camera in a studio ... there really is no point

lxdude · May 28, 2012

jp498 said:
He probably bought a british car.

!!!

Draw or photograph

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