Dots

[ori_s]

Hello friends,Strange thing happened to me that maybe someone here can help me understand.I shot an ilford panF 50 on my fuji 690 and developed in Rodinal 1+80 for one hour (stand). Something I do routinely in 35 mm. Everything went great except for two frames that got strange spots.What distinguished the two frames was that they were long exposures, one for two minutes and one for one hour (daylight plus nd filter)I attached a crop from the poor scan i made Does anyone have an idea why this happens and what can be done for not happen again?

Thank you

Ori

 

[darkosaric]

Welcome to APUG .

Weird situation, because it is only on 2 frames. It does not look like bromide drag. I can not see connection between long exposures and those dots - maybe somebody else will help. Are you sure it is not a scanner issue? Can you see those dots with a loupe or something?

Regards

 

[ori_s]

Thanks Dargo

I can see it with a loupe and it's only on those 2 long exposure frames. the 2 minute exposure got less intense dots than the 1 hour one.

 

[darkosaric]

If this was done with a digital camera - I would say "hot pixels", but is there a similar phenomena on film?

 

[Michael W]

You might find this thread interesting - I had the same problem in 2011. Was never resolved, even after sending the film to Ilford.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Michael,

I am sorry to hear it was not resolved, was that because we failed to reply or because we returned a 'cause not certain' verdict ?

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[ic-racer]

Is that fresh film. I see those marks (after processing) on old film stored in refrigeration.

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Ori_s,

I am sorry you have experienced a problem with an ILFORD Photo product.

Are you talking about the white 'mottle' like marks or the three black dots ?

Whilst you cannot see much from a scan if you could scan the whole two negs that would help me.

Simon ILFORD Photo HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[ori_s]

The film expired at January 2013, old but not that much. I attached the full scans that are actually photos with digital camera on a light table, my epson v600 and my mac are not friends any more but this is for another thread. I noticed that one of the frames have a sign (cirlcle of dots) that matches the paper who holds the film before develop.

 

[Dave in Kansas]

Pan F is one of my favorite films, but I have noticed some issues when it starts to get old, especially if it contains latent images. That may be what you experienced. I'd suggest buying a fresh roll and then developing within a reasonable period of time.

Dave

 

[Buje]

I, too, have had problems in the past with the numbers on the paper showing up on the negatives. I cannot recall if the film was refrigerated or not but in the back of my mind, I think it was. A thought just came to mind... could the ink from the printing transfer to the emulsion? Perhaps the packaging is not moisture-proof and over a long time, humidity inside the wrapping caused the ink to transfer.

 

[ori_s]

Thanks
I guess film was old and this combination is not working well. Cool, but why there is such a difference with long exposures compares to short ones?
I am just curios to know how things work.
While writing i thought about something. When i expose very long i compensate 2-3 stops so actually much more light is getting in than in normal exposures.
Now i understood the difference but the dots are still there..

 

[MartinP]

I might almost think of condensation on the surface of the film prior to, or post, exposure of these frames. Did you change lens around the time of these shots, if that version of the 690 has changeable lenses of course? I'm also not noticing the backing paper transfer you mentioned, so probably I'm looking in the wrong place for that. Was the opened film spool refrigerated at some point, thinking of condensation again of course.

 

[Michael W]

Dear Michael,

I am sorry to hear it was not resolved, was that because we failed to reply or because we returned a 'cause not certain' verdict ?

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Hi Simon, yes, I got a reply from Ilford that they couldn't say what caused the spots. Interesting that my problem was with a pinhole camera, longinsh exposures & the guy who started this thread was also getting similar problem with long exposures - does that provide any clues? My film was fresh.

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Buje,

This is not 'wrapper offset' :

I will speak to Tech service re extended exposure on PAN F+

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Ori-S,

Thanks for posting the images, we will need to see the actual film to ascertain what it is, technically it has 'expired' and its warranty void but it should still perform fine.

I have indeed taken a walk to see Tech Service, the very long length of one of the exposures should have absolutely nothing to do with what you are seeing ( re Michael W correctly noted it could be a 'link') I was unsure as to whether it could have an effect, tech service say no, highly, highly unlikely. NB : Tech service did say if you have a defective shutter, or damaged back plate, extended or long exposures 'could' create an issue on the film that would not be obvious with normal exposures
( obviously fogging but also light 'shading' or 'scattering' ) they do not think this example suffers from anything like that.

Tech service point out the known fact that PAN F and its later derivitive PAN F + is our oldest film emulsion design, hence on our full TI sheet the LIS ( Latent image stability ) parameters are advised to users, they are sure its also not related to LIS.

Also, after Michael's referral and two other customer enquiries Tech Service did some tests relating to freezing on PAN F + emulsions, also some tests when not 'thawed' and we were unable to replicate whatsover the issue described.

We have seen issues based on very extended pre-soak ( we do not recommend any ILFORD Film should need or require a pre-soak, but as I have said a normal pre-soak should not affect any performance characteristics of any ILFORD film ).

Finally, please return the film to us at, HARMAN technology Limited, Ilford Way, Mobberley, Knutsford, CHESHIRE. WA16 7JL : For the attention of Technical Service. Please remember your contact details especially your e.mail.

We will then inspect the film and get back to you.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

If possible, the box and the backing paper, with details of where and when purchased, how it was stored ( ie frozen or not, if frozen how long thawing before exposure ) how long between exposing and processing. Also if you require the negatives returned to you.

 

[ori_s]

Thanks for all the effort,

The film was not frizzed, it just sat in the closet all the time. I developed it in the same day it was shot on.
I did pre-soaked it, i think just for half a minute but maybe it was 2-3 minutes with "hard tap water" that Israel is known to have. The rumor says pre-soaking helps not to get uneven develop especially with stand development.

What does your guys say about that?

Anyway i prefer to keep the film. If something like this will happen again i will let you know.

Thanks again

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Ori_S,

Its up to you... but its no problem we would return the film to you.

ILFORD Photo do not recommend Pre-soaking any of our emulsions as we do not believe it to be advantageous or required in any way ... but 2-3 minutes even in super hard water should not have any effect on the film whatsoever.

Stand development is used by many people who think it produces the best negs. Who am I to disagree, I cannot speak about its efficacy as I have never used stand development, nor have I ever pre-soaked and nor have I ever used RODINAL. Plenty of Apuggers I am sure who do all three will no doubt chip in...

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[MDR]

I might almost think of condensation on the surface of the film prior to, or post, exposure of these frames. Did you change lens around the time of these shots, if that version of the 690 has changeable lenses of course? I'm also not noticing the backing paper transfer you mentioned, so probably I'm looking in the wrong place for that. Was the opened film spool refrigerated at some point, thinking of condensation again of course.

I'll second MartinP opinion about condensation, was it stored in a humid environment? I once had similar not identical problems and the reason was humidity.

Regarding pre-soaking I do pre-soak when I use Rodinal 1:100 and stand and never had any problems aside from bromide drag with some 120 MF emulsions. Never had any problems with Pan-F and stand though.

 

[snay1345]

I also presoak on all ilford films before stand developing in Rodinal. I have never had that problem. I have presoaked for up to ten minutes before not realizing I have lost track of time due to my kids or wife distracting me.