Donald Quall's Paracetamol "Rodinal" works! :D

[ZorkiKat]

Four months ago, I brewed some of the paracetamol/acetaminophen "rodinal" recipe posted by Donald Qualls. It really works! A week or two after I used this developer, I posted my observations in other fora. The solution is now very dark- like strong coffee from Starbuck's- and has plenty of particulates floating around. These bits don't seem to matter- at dilutions of 1+50 or 1+100, very little actually goes in the working bath.

As Donald said, the dilutions and time/temperatures used with real Rodinal can be used. They can. The negatives developed in this paracetamol developer look every bit as the negatives I developed in Agfa Rodinal. Maybe there's some imperceptible differences, but in as far as the desireable Rodinal qualities like accutance and compensation go, they're there. The grain is sharp in a very Rodinal way.

I've also tried modifying Donald's recipe by substituting sodium metabisulfite for sodium sulphite and by adding a bit of potassium bromide. Again, these modifications did not seem to result in anything significant in as far as the developed negative is concerned.

This DIY developer formula is really useful for me. Real Agfa Rodinal has not been available here for the last 40 years (never was stocked in the local shops). Even the once common developers like D76, Microdol, and HC110 have also become scarce. Raw ingredients like metol are now almost impossible to find. But a developer which is made from common and readily-available (and unlikely to disappear) components is really heaven-sent. That is a very welcome alternative to having to import or buy through the internet developers or developer components. Though the more knowledgable may say that the paracetamol-derived Rodinal isn't the real thing, it's still better than having no developer at all.

The Rodinal I have came from Australia and Germany. I wish I knew about the paracetamol developer years ago when I always wanted to try Rodinal development and had many types of BW film to choose from.

Many thanks to Donald!

Jay

 

[Jorge]

Where is this forumla? Can you repost it or post yours with the modification?

 

[ZorkiKat]

Where is this forumla? Can you repost it or post yours with the modification?

Its here:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists) to

I made enough for 250ml, so multiply the amounts given by 5.
Modified by substituting an equal amount of sodium metabisulphite for the original given sulphite. Added about 3 grams of potassium bromide too. The chemists here would probably say that the use of metabisulphite will lead to different sorts of reactions and byproducts in the solution. But I think what matters is the negative that results.

Jay

 

[Jorge]

Thanks!

 

[BradS]

I have to agree. A film developer of this quality that can be made from common household items is a wonderful discovery.

 

[juan]

Where does one get Red Devil lye in the US now? All of the stores in my area stopped carrying it as it is an ingredient used in the manufacture of drugs. Also Sudafed.
Could something else be substituted? Sodium carbonate or something?
juan

 

[srs5694]

It's my understanding that you can't substitute sodium carbonate or most other alkalis for the sodium hydroxide (lye) because the sodium hydroxide reacts with the acetaminophen to create para-aminophenol in a way that most other alkalis won't. (You might be able to substitute potassium hydroxide, but I'm not sure of that, and it's not more readily available, anyhow.)

If you can't find Red Devil Lye locally, you could try shops that carry soap-making supplies, either local craft shops or mail-order outfits like The Chemistry Store or Summer Bee Meadow. TCS also has several other items that are useful to homebrew photochemists, such as sodium sulfite, ascorbic acid, TEA, and sodium thiosulfate, all at very good prices. Both of these outfits will ship small quantities of lye without charging ridiculous hazmat fees, but TCS does have a packing fee they don't mention until late in the order process.

 

[Donald Qualls]

You don't have to have the Red Devil brand, any household lye will work as long as it comes in coarsely granulated form (looks like rock salt for clearing ice or making ice cream). Potassium hydroxide surely would work, but it's harder to come by than the sodium version. In theory, you could get closer to the original Rodinal formula (including even better longevity than Parodinal) by using potassium hydroxide and potassium sulfite, which would allow a higher sulfite concentration that should preserve the developer longer (Parodinal concentrate is close to saturation for the sulfite, and the potassium salt, in the absence of sodium from other sources, is more soluble).

BTW, the formula isn't mine -- I got it from Usenet group rec.photo.darkroom about three years ago, and just got around to trying it this past winter.

 

[Mike Té]

...made me wonder...

...drank some Rodinal, now my headache's gone.

Thanks!

 

[Lachlan Young]

...made me wonder...

...drank some Rodinal, now my headache's gone.

Thanks!

Watch out for the indigestion...

Lachlan

 

[Gerald Koch]

You must use sodium hydroxide (lye) or potassium hydroxide (potash lye). Sodium carbonate will not work. I was able to get lye, although not Red Devil brand lye, from an Ace Hardware store. Red Devil is recommended because is of sufficient purity. I haven't opened the brand I bought and so cannot comment on its visual condition. You can purchase lye from www.chemistrystore.com.

 

[gainer]

You can make sodium hydroxide from calcium hydroxide and sodium carbonate. Calcium hydroxide is used by gardeners and masons. It is not very soluble, but the calcium carbonate is even less soluble so the reaction can proceed until the CaOH is gone into CaCO3 and the NaCO3 has gone into NaOH.

Calcium hydroxide is also called slaked lime or hydrated lime. Quick lime is calcium oxide.

The actual amount of NaOH remaining in Rodinal is probably nil. Much of what went into the making was used in neutralizing the bisulfite and eliminating the hydrochloride from the p-aminophenol hydrochloride. You might consider the possibility of obtaining some p-aminophenol base from Photographer's Formulary. Now you only need enough sodium or potassium ions to make the base into a phenolate. You needn't start with the bisulfite, either. This cuts down even more the need for hydroxide.

 

[derevaun]

I found a liquid drain cleaner that only lists NaOH as an ingredient (29%), at Ace Hardware. It's made by Roebic; the MSDS is on their site. I used sodium metabisulfite, for lack of available sulfite, and that combo worked great if a little weak (which I credit to uncertainty WRT the percentage by volume or by weight, and maybe the different pH of the metabisulfite, but whatever). I especially liked it with sodium ascorbate and borax.

 

[collect888]

I have read many Donald Quall's excellent postings on film developing and other darkroom issues. Keep up the great writings! - philip

 

[ZorkiKat]

Parodinal?

Parodinal: ersatz rodinal, parody of rodinal. Good for headache relief and gas pains. Also for film development

Here is an example: Fuji Neopan 400 film exposed in a Leica M3 and Jupiter-3 1.5/50mm. Developed in paracetamol rodinal diluted 1+50

...and an enlarged detail from the same picture:

Jay

 

[Gerald Koch]

The first mention of using acetominaphen as a developing agent that I know of was in an article by Walter C. Snyder in the Dignan Newsletter of Sept 1973. His formula was

Water (100 F) .......................................... 400 ml
Acetominophen tablets ............................... 4.7 g
Sodium bisulfite ......................................... 30.0 g
Sodium hydroxide ....................................... 25.0 g
Potassium bromide ...................................... 6.0 g
Water to make ........................................... 500 ml

Crush the tablets to aid in their dissolution. A precipitate will remain even when all the ingredients have been added. This is starch and other binders used to form the tablets. Allow the solution to cool and then filter. Store the solution in several small bottles. Mr Snyder recommended a dilution of 1:6 and a developing time of ~18 min at 72 F.

If I were to make this solution I would recommend that the amount of tablets be increased to 20 grams thus permitting a dilution of 1:25.

Also mentioned in the article is that at the time there was an in-house brand of acetominophen being sold in drug stores called Rodinol being sold in the Washington DC area. Yes, the name is very similar but with ab 'o' rather than an 'a'.

 

[tpersin]

Donald also posted his detailed instructions here:
http://www.f295.org/DIYforum/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?b-devFilm/m-1150317376/

tp

 

[Donald Qualls]

Zorkikat, your results match mine pretty closely. The attached image was shot on .EDU 400 (same as Classic 400, aka Fortepan), 4x5 size, processed in Parodinal; the second image is a 1:1 crop at 2400 ppi. Parodinal is my standard developer for Arista .EDU Ultra 100 (aka Fomapan 100), in all sizes from 35 mm up to 4x5; I also use it for Classic 400 (aka Fortepan 400) in 120 and larger, and I like Tri-X (400) in it, at least in 120. I should note that Ultra 100 is my standard ISO 100 film, and Classic 400 has been my standard ISO 400 (though I'm in process of switching to Ultra 400 in 120 and smaller).

Now that I've gotten a filter system and switched back to filtered water for most photographic use (mixing concentrates and final rinse with PhotoFlo get distilled; everything else gets filtered), I figure it costs me about a nickel for the chemistry to develop a roll of 35 mm in Parodinal (not counting fixer, which is a fixed cost).

 

[ZorkiKat]

Donald,

You might want to know that the Parodinal recipe you posted has become an agent of conversion here. Because of it, I've made a few converts (and pulled back a few into the flock ) from people who have been shooting digital almost exclusively. Many of them wanted to shoot on film BW, at least, but the main reason why they avoided doing it is the lack of any suitable developer. It is now difficult to obtain D76 in Manila, and commercial developing of BW is limited. Those that do offer it (3 at the last count) would either do it badly or expensively, or both.

Yesterday, we demonstrated the developer to 5 people. That's 5 more people I know who would be shooting on film.

BTW, in your instructions, you said that the particulates should be left in the solution. Would it be alright to filter the concentrate (through a coffee filter perhaps) and remove the starch binders? Or will it remove the useful solids needed by the concentrate as well? My 1st batch is almost 6 months old, and is in bottle half-full. It stays in an environment where ambient temperature averages 27-31 deg C. As of yesterday, the developer worked as it did three days after it was concocted. 250 mL goes a long way for me since I just average about 5 rolls a month now. The third batch I made up is just 2 weeks old and still looks cream yellow. Activity wise, the old and new seemed to work with the same activity, despite one looking muddy and dark.

Thanks again for your wonderful contribution.

Jay

 

[Donald Qualls]

If you want/need to filter, I'd recommend doing so after dissolving the acetaminophen, rather than later in the process. I'd recommend a chemical filter paper, with a pleated fold to improve flow rate, and recycling the liquid through the filter several times to get as much of the acetaminophen into solution as possible. Ideal would be if one could obtain acetaminophen in untableted powder form, of course, but I've tried filtering only once, with my second batch, and I don't think it was coincidence that that batch failed soonest (though I also increased the sodium hydroxide in an unneeded attempt to correct for reduced activity on adding potassium bromide). I believe the filtering may have trapped some undissolved acetaminophen in the filter, as well as the tableting material.

Another method that might work is "skimming" the solution after dissolving the crushed tablets -- using a tea strainer or something similar, with large enough holes to pass the finer bits but still capable of catching the bigger junk (stainless steel or plastic only, please). You could also put the crushed tablets in a tea strainer or one of those spring-loaded clamping "strainer spoons" before dissolving it.

Interestingly, my third batch has almost no floating "stuff" despite not being filtered; I'm not sure why, other than having used plain water instead of a pre-mixed sodium sulfite solution to dissolve the acetaminophen.

Color change over time without noticeable change in activity is traditional for p-aminophenol developers, BTW. Rodinal has done it since the 1880s, and every so often someone finds a bottle of Rodinal that's been standing around for decades -- and in practically every case it still works.

My first batch of Parodinal seemed to weaken suddenly after about 13 weeks, but a) I was storing in a large mouthed jam jar instead of a small mouthed bottle, b) the bottle was clear, and c) I was making no effort to exclude air; by that time there was about four times the volume of air as developer in the bottle (nor was it anything like full when I started). Recently, I've been mixing in smaller batches and storing in a smaller brown bottle (one that originally contained yeast for my bread machine). I use up the smaller batches rapidly enough I don't anticipate learning whether the longevity is improved...

 

[srs5694]

You might want to know that the Parodinal recipe you posted has become an agent of conversion here. Because of it, I've made a few converts (and pulled back a few into the flock ) from people who have been shooting digital almost exclusively.

You might want to consider purchasing some of the harder-to-find conventional ingredients (metol, phenidone, etc.) from an overseas supplier. If you've got enough B&W photographers, you could go in for a group purchase and split it up once you get it, which would help keep costs down. This approach would enable you to mix up a wider variety of developers. I believe that Photographer's Formulary and B&H in the US will both ship internationally. Other North American suppliers you could contact include Art Craft, DigitalTruth, and Dead Link Removed There may be suppliers in Europe, Australia, China, or elsewhere, too, but I'm not familiar with them.

 

[ZorkiKat]

You might want to consider purchasing some of the harder-to-find conventional ingredients (metol, phenidone, etc.) from an overseas supplier. If you've got enough B&W photographers, you could go in for a group purchase and split it up once you get it, which would help keep costs down. This approach would enable you to mix up a wider variety of developers. I believe that Photographer's Formulary and B&H in the US will both ship internationally. Other North American suppliers you could contact include Art Craft, DigitalTruth, and Dead Link Removed There may be suppliers in Europe, Australia, China, or elsewhere, too, but I'm not familiar with them.

It will be easier for a camera to pass through the eye of a needle than strange looking powders through customs here As I said elsewhere, terms like "ordering through the internet" and "mail order" don't quite go easily with many of the photographers here.

 

[Donald Qualls]

In theory, you could make metol from the p-aminophenol obtained by cleaning the acetyl group from acetaminophen -- and then even make phenidone from the metol. However, I'm not at all sure it's worth the effort. There are good reasons Rodinal has been around for more than a century, and one is that it's a pretty good developer. Yes, there are films that don't like it much, but not that many; the only ISO 100 I've seen that's really bad in Rodinal is Neopan SS.

If you do want to try ordering from outside the Philippines, getting "barrel" quantities is likely to be easier than small packages, if only because they're likely to come with suitable paperwork from a chemical manufacturer. Sodium sulfite you can probably get locally -- it's sold as a swimming pool chemical, used as a meat preservative, and in winemaking (though the vintners tend to prefer the metabisulfite). You can probably also get ascorbic acid powder, sodium carbonate, borax, and sodium hydroxide. If you can source a barrel of metol, you'll (collectively) be able to make D-76H, D-23, and E-72 print developer, just to name a few, plus a variant of Parodinal with ascorbic acid (look for information about adding ascorbic acid to Rodinal from Pat Gainer), and Caffenol C.

You might even be able to get metol locally, if you dig deep enough -- as I recall, it's used for other things than photography, though photography is the #1 consumer by far.

 

[ZorkiKat]

Donald

It's fairly easy to get most of the reagents needed to brew photographic chemistry. It's the developing agents which are impossible to get. Hydroquinone is still available, due to the fact the Philippines is slow to ban its use in cosmetics. It's being banned gradually though, we might not have it for a long time. Ascorbic acid will always be here and should be good as a hydroquinone sub.

Pyrogallol is sometimes available- for high school labs which use it, for among other things, chlorophyll removal for biology experiments.

Sulfite, bisulfite, lye, are commonly and cheaply available. They average about less than US$2.00 per kilogram. It's even possible to get all the materials needed to cook up a batch of silverhalide emulsion. Refined gelatin is very cheap. Metol was last available about 2001. Previously, I was able to make up a plethora of metol-based developers. I had a fine time souping my films not only through D76, but also thorugh D23, 25, DK50, DK 60, and even DK 76, as well as Ansco variants like Ansco 17 and Ansco 103. Toners were also easy to do. Recently though, ferricyanide and dichromate had been added to the list of substances which may not be publicly sold- a permit from the government is needed to secure this. So much for cyanotypy.

 

[Gerald Koch]

... then even make phenidone from the metol.

While Metol is a substituted aminophenol, Phenidone is not chemically related to aminophenol. It would not be practical to use it as a starting point for synthesis.