Does this sound like a FB paper you use?

[John Gardner]

Until now I’ve printed almost exclusively on RC paper, but, inspired in large part by a beautiful print that was made in a pro lab from one of my negs in the late 1980s, I want to make some FB prints. I do not know what paper or developer was used on the print I admire so much, and it is likely to been changed or discontinued anyway, so I will describe what I like about it. If this sounds like a paper you know I’d much appreciate learning what paper + developer ( + toner?) combination you’d recommend to achieve this look. I fully understand that paper and chemistry alone does not make a good print, but that advanced printing skills and experience are also an essential part.

- the paper is double weight or heavier

- the base color of the paper is moderately warm

- the texture kind of resembles that of a white chicken egg from the grocery store. Another description would be like the leather covering older cameras have, but at a much reduced scale and more gentle.

- The blacks are deep and inky... looking almost like dried ink, and seem neutral in tone. I do not detect the purplishness that I have read sometimes comes with selenium toning, but I do not know if the print was toned. This richness in the blacks is an important factor to me, as is the texture mentioned above.

- The surface is not glossy, but it isn’t absolutely flat matte either. The blacks in particular reflect light, but with a sort of glow, not the sheen of glossy. Is this what is termed semi-matte? It seems less shiny than Ilford RC Pearl, but that paper has a very different surface texture.

I thank you in advance for constructive replies of paper + chemistry combinations that would help me achieve this look. Based on web descriptions I have a list of papers I think might be kind of like this, but hopefully this forum will narrow it down and help me find the right paper for me. A VC paper is more convenient of course, but I will work with graded if I need to. Please note that I may not understand abbreviations other than FB, RC and VC used in your answer. Mostly I’m printing from medium format Tri-X processed in Xtol. Many thanks, John.

 

[PHOTOTONE]

Many of the special surface papers of the past have been discontinued because the maker of the base paper stock discontinued the papers due to dwindlng sales. So, the photo paper makers of the world have to be content with what IS available for them to coat on. The demand is not great enough to have a custom mill run of a specialty surface. No current manufacturer of darkroom photo papers actually make the base paper stock.

 

[Mark Fisher]

I'm sure this is not the paper that was used, but you might want to consider Kentmere Fineprint Semi-Matt....or maybe the warm tone version. I'd develop it in Dektol or Edwal Ultrablack. I suspect one of these two will be close to what you are looking for. These are both fiber, variable contrast papers available from Freestyle....and are quite reasonably priced.

 

[dpurdy]

I think in the 1980s smooth surface was in favor a lot. Thinking of the papers a lab might be using in that period... Ilford, Oriental Seagull, Kodak, Agfa Portriga or Brovira. That would I believe pretty much cover the main ones. Forte was not so well known. The Zone 6 paper, Brilliant sort of sounds like what you describe but it would be rare for a lab to use it. Oriental was very smooth as was Portriga. The neutral tone papers had warmer base than they do today. I would guess that since it was a lab in the 80s they were most likely using a Kodak paper. Some Kodak papers had lightly textured glossy surfaces.. Ektalure K comes to mind. It was warmish and had a beautiful tonality and was pretty well known. When I was in photo school in the 70s we were forced to use it.

But then is then and now is now and the papers are different. The warm tone papers aren't as warm as they used to be and the smooth glossy surfaces are not as smooth. You might give Foma VCWT or Oriental VCWT or Ilford VCWT a try. All good papers.
Dennis

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I'm having a hard time understanding what the finish is like, but imagine similar to an eggshell paint.
I can't think of a paper that does this now, but check out Fotokemika Emaks some time. Graded paper. Great loooooong tonal scale, very heavy paper. Can produce really heavy stark blacks if you have a negative that's up for it.
The paper surface is extremely beautiful with a soft sheen. Wonderful paper that tones well. I use it with Ilford Multigrade developer, but have also used it with Amidol for softer results and waterbath contrast control. Ansco 130 works a treat too. But I like over-the-counter stuff...

- Thomas

 

[PVia]

Sounds like Agfa MC118 to me...unfortunately not made anymore but may be resurrected by the end of the year by Adox. Keep watching the Freestyle website for news.

I love this paper and fortunately I was able to pick up a few boxes locally from someone getting out of the business; slightly foggy but brightens up considerably with a quick bleach bath.

 

[skahde]

It is close to impossible to guess what paper your lab actually used and you can make a handfull of available and discontinued papers to look like you describe.

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

Inky blacks, chicken egg texture, heavy base, warm, not glossy but not flat: if I had to bet, I would take 3 to 1 odds that it's Ektalure G. There's some still around from time to time.

 

[sun of sand]

E or G
fine-grained lustre
E is less warm than G
more like a muslin white than a brownish yellow

very soft leather or egg-like

 

[John Gardner]

These replies have led me to read more about Ektalure. Based on what I’ve read, and what I know of the lab where the work was done, I think the paper was probably Ektalure G. Someday I will get hold of an old Kodak sample book and know with greater certainty. The replies have also helped me to understand that what I'm looking for is a currently manufactured paper with a natural or cream or ivory base that can be developed to have neutral blacks in a semi-matte surface with some degree of texture... which isn't exactly what I understand Ektalure G to have been, but is what I like about the print I have. The suggestions offered here have given me some good ideas of what papers to start with. After I have ordered some and had time to test them I will post again with my results. In the meantime, I welcome any further comments or suggestions for paper that might help me get where I want to go. Many thanks for your kind help, John

 

[John Gardner]

Since my initial posting I’ve bought small packs of five different papers in 8x10 and tested them. I have also had an opportunity to closely examine an Agfa sample book from 1982.

The Agfa Print Portfolio has little samples about the size of a business card of all their papers from that time. The closest match to the print I love so much is Portriga Rapid 118. In terms of surface pattern it seems identical. In terms of base tint the differences are so slight that they could simply be due to differing storage conditions or variation from one batch to the next. The tone of the print I have, while on the warm side of neutral, is noticably cooler than the sample. There is also noticeably greater d-max in my print… the darkest areas are not simply different in tone, they are deeper, and there is also a broader contrast range. I think that these differences could be attributed to different developers and to toning, based on what I’ve read about the Agfa paper, although I don’t have really sufficient experience to judge. But I do know that it’s a very beautiful print and that paper was held in the highest regard by many.

Unfortunately, Agfa doesn’t make that or any other papers anymore. But what I didn’t know when I ordered my five test papers was that two of them were also being eliminated from production. I have been told that both Fomatone MG Classic VC Fiber Warmtone Chamois Natural Base (532) and Bergger Silver Supreme are no longer in production. (I should have realised this before I started testing, but didn’t.) Although they aren’t identical to the print I was trying to match they are still very beautiful papers with a textured water color / art paper sort of base and I would have liked to explore them further. There is still some of each for sale out there, but without a steady supply I’m reluctant to start a project on it. (The Fomatone 532 has been reissued, but on a noticably different paper base; I think they’ve appended a roman numeral II to the name.) Fomabrom Variant IV MG – VC FB (123) is another paper I tested. The Freestyle catalog says that it is a “…velvet semi-matt designed to match Afga MCP 118.” The Agfa sample book from 1982 does not have a paper with that exact name. Based on my limited testing, and comparing mostly suface texture and reflective properties, I find the Fomabrom 123 to most closely match the Brovira 119 from the Agfa 1982 sample book. The Fomabrome 123 texture is busier than Portriga 118, and it is more reflective, almost like a pearl finish, which some photographers know how to use very well but which is not the look I’m after. And finally I tested Ilford Multigrade FB Warmtone Semi-matte (a paper that is readily available and which many of you probably know the look of) and Bergger VCB Style Warm Tone Ivory Semi-glossy. The Bergger looked a lot like the Ilford to me, and I have since read that Ilford is a supplier for Bergger. I’ve decided to start with the Ilford.

There were a few papers suggested here which I did not test for a variety of reasons, but I greatly appreciate all the help and advice I was given. My initial experiences with fiber based papers twenty years ago were with bottom of the line paper in a communal darkroom with stale chemistry that other users cross-contaminated through sloppy handling . Now, with better papers and clean, fresh chemicals I see a world of difference. I only wish, as I know we all do, that there were more papers to pick from.

 

[Claire Senft]

If the lab is still in business take your print in and ask them.

 

[cdhauber]

I used to use Ektalure until they discontinued it. And your description sounds just like it. Most frustrating thing about traditional photography is how often something is discontinued.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Sounds like Kodak's N surface. It's my favorite, generally. Over the years it has been called "semi-matte" or "Fine Lustre." It's still currently used on Kodak's color offerings. If you can find a lab that uses Kodak paper and offers it in matte (incorrect nomenclature) or semi-matte you have a point to start from. Run a roll of XP-2 through the system.

Foma/Arista.edu Ultra has the same, 99% dead ringer surface called "semi-matte."

I have an old Kodak paper sampler, it's new enough that it does have Polycontrast in it. Ektalure was available in F Glossy, R, X, Y, and G. The latter comes the closest to a semi-matte or the N surface. The R, X, and Y are rather heavily textured.

This doesn't address the tint of the white, but there's my two cents on the surface. And Claire's advice is spot on.

 

[craigclu]

Something to try with currently available materials.... Ilford WT MG FB Glossy in a cold tone developer, using the cloth side of a dryer on the image surface on a low temperature, rolled. I like Ansco 130 with the bromide replaced by benzotriazole (this recipe is listed somewhere on APUG). The deepest blacks take on a slight "velvety" surface that accentuates and the subtle surface picked up from the cloth takes the extreme sheen from the surface.

 

[John Gardner]

Thanks again for the further suggestions. I have been developing the Ilford WT VC FB in Silvergrain Tektol Black, which keeps it just on the warm side of neutral. I would love to be able to ask the lab what paper they used, but they closed many years ago. It was the "Photo Services" of the University of Kansas... a little office in the basement of the art building that did printing for the whole campus, but that also would do any commercial work that walked in the door, although they did not advertise this much. The printer's name was Gordon and he had many years of experience. Despite the fact that they turned a profit they were closed down by the school. The last time I saw Gordon he was looking for a new job and I lost track of him.