Does "no mirror" really = sharper negs?

John Koehrer · Feb 6, 2010

markbarendt said:
First, the mirror has to be completely out of the way or it will be in the picture so I doubt that the shutter fires until it's up all the way. This is part of why a rangefinder can fire faster, there is no mirror to wait for.

Confirming this one, the shutter is actually released by the mirror.

2F/2F · Feb 6, 2010

benjiboy said:
Please correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I have always thought that in an SLR in short exposure say 30th to 1000th sec. by the time the mirror reaches the top of its travel and hits the foam bumper the picture has already been taken.

Seems to me that the mirror would thereby be in every shot.....

rhmimac · Feb 7, 2010

MLU on F4S, RF on the " to buy" list

rhmimac said:
Makes me thinking of buying an F4 for my macrowork on a 105mm

rhmimac

So I did buy it last friday: F4S - the heavy one - for MLU (macro ) and double exposure possibility

As I'm learning here every minute I enter the APUG rooms: there will be a RF following: for it being quiet and light.

So I'll tell you people when it's there and compare the 2.

Very very education thread but costly!

thanks

rhmimac

benjiboy · Nov 12, 2011

Another question is that if both the cameras are hand held would you be able to see any significant difference in the pictures, very little if any I would imagine.

georg16nik · Nov 14, 2011

Does "no mirror" really = sharper negs?
Yes, it does, shortly.
Its simple physics, its tricky to counter balance that slapping force in constantly effective and elegant way, also the mirror should be all the way up in order for the shutter to act and the clock is ticking.
In the mean time, You have black out in the viewfinder.
In those cameras that have horizontal shutters You have additional distraction, so You end up having vertical and horizontal dance.
In those having vertical shutters, the resulted shake from the mirror might be amplified or damped but hardly in consistent manner.
Central, shutter-in-lense is probably the most elegant way for either SLR or RF.
Comparing focal plane RF with focal plane or central shutter SLR is disputable but if we compare central shutter RF with focal plane SLR or even with central shutter SLR, then its a no contest, IMHO.
Another trade off is that in SLR You also have to compensate the lens optical formula for the size of the mirror that stays between the focal plane and the lens.

ic-racer · Nov 14, 2011

"Sharper" implies a comparison. The settings in which mirror lockup is needed are not normally done with a rangefinder, so its hard to compare. For example very long lenses and macrophotography are not usually done with a rangefinder.

In terms of hand-holding normal and wide lenses; I don't see any differnece in sharpness between a rangefinder and SLR 35mm camera.

Now, if you are discussing 6x6 SLRs vs rangefinder 6x6 I know from experience my Rollieflex SLX needs pretty fast shutterspeeds for hand-held photography with lenses 80mm and longer (1/250 or 1/500).

Mainecoonmaniac · Nov 14, 2011

It depends on what you shoot. Macro shots or long exposures can make a difference if there's no mirror slapping around. I have a Canon FTB that has mirror up mode. The screen is blacked out when I put the mirror up though. I think it more of a problem if you don't have a tripod or shaky hands.

Diapositivo · Nov 15, 2011

The effect of mirror on image quality is, according to somebody, visible for shutter speeds from around 1/4" to 1/30" or so.
From 1/125" the effect should be small. There should always is a loss of quality, so you'd better raise the mirror if you work on tripod, but whereas at 1/8" raising the mirror gives a clear gain in image quality, at 1/500" it doesn't, using a normal lens.

That said: when using a tripod and if you have mirror lock-up, do use it always.
If using the camera hand-held, the real difference can be felt at 1/15" or 1/30" which are the two speeds that one may be induced to use free-hand and which exhibit more the effect of mirror slapping. If you normally take pictures in normal daylight conditions, and your shutter speed normally is above 1/60", I wouldn't worry about the effect of the mirror on quality, it's hand-holding which, in itself, degrades quality more than mirror.

I've read conflicting reports over sharpness at high shutter speeds with or without mirror.

My impression is that tripod work is always superior, at every speed, to hand-holding, which leads me to believe that also at 1/500" there is a decay caused by the hand shake.

vpwphoto · Nov 15, 2011

Mirror slap is the lest of the issues.... you can blur a handheld image at most any shutter speed... a steady hand is needed and evident even for photos at 1/1000th if you are splitting hairs.

I have an aunt that blurred every photo she made with a 1/125 instamatic... my dad always made fun of her snapshots.

Go make some photographs that matter and stop worrying about what other people think of your rig.

vpwphoto · Nov 15, 2011

Do a physics equation on the effects... the film gate is solid with the body, what is the ratio of weight of the mirror to the whole mechanism. Then the damping. It is nothing... and while we are at this pissing war, what is the effect of inertia of the shutter curtains, I bet we could do some math that shows that perhaps some of the rangefinders have a larger torque effect on the system (ratio of shutter to body) that is effect more than a heavy Nikon with those titanium foil shutters, this is congecture on my part at this time, but if someone is willing to do the math, I bet there is something to this.

Oh ... go make some photographs!

Paul Goutiere · Nov 15, 2011

Photography is an imprecise science. There are few, if any technically "perfect" photographs taken with a film camera.

-What is the true speed of the film?
-How accurate is the film developing?
-How accurate is the meter?
-How accurate is the shutter speed?
-Did you measure the scene properly with your light meter?
-Is the film moving in the film plane during the shutter traverse?
-Do both shutter curtains move across the film plane at the same speed?
-Does the lens hold it's focus exactly during the shock of stop down?
-Does the lens hold it's focus exactly during the shock of the shutter releasing?
-Is that lens of yours as perfect as you have been led to believe?
-Is the footing under the tripod really solid?
-Is the tripod large enough for the camera?
-Does the tripod have enough mass to dampen any shutter or mirror shock?
-Is your lens made by the right manufacturer?
-Did Ansel recommend the camera you are using to anyone?
-Do you really know what you are doing?
-Is the lens barrel chrome or black?

Scary stuff eh?

benjiboy · Nov 15, 2011

I try myself not to get too hung up with the technicality s of photography any more, I worry more about what my pictures say if anything, even if they are not of the ultimate photo - technical quality.

2F/2F · Nov 15, 2011

Paul Goutiere said:
Did you measure the scene properly with your light meter?

Factor number one in "technically flawed" film IME. A very high percentage of major problems can be traced to that.

Does "no mirror" really = sharper negs?

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