Does medium format take in more light?

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rknewcomb

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"In film, grain size is the closest equivalent. So in some ways the exact same thing happens. Medium format has more grains covering an area of the image than 35mm film will have. So it will have less 'noise' if you define noise as random rendering based on grain rather than the optical image projected onto the film plane."

--Medium format film has the exact same size silver grains as 35mm film of the same type/speed. Medium format film does not have more silver grains per unit of square measure than 35mm film. If you cut a piece of 120 film down to 35mm size it is has the same grain size and numbers of grains. So this analogy to pixel site size and numbers of sites per sensor does not hold up.
I understand that the original question was not clearly stated and it would be difficult to answer but this ain't it.
Robert
 

Dan Daniel

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"In film, grain size is the closest equivalent. So in some ways the exact same thing happens. Medium format has more grains covering an area of the image than 35mm film will have. So it will have less 'noise' if you define noise as random rendering based on grain rather than the optical image projected onto the film plane."

--Medium format film has the exact same size silver grains as 35mm film of the same type/speed. Medium format film does not have more silver grains per unit of square measure than 35mm film. If you cut a piece of 120 film down to 35mm size it is has the same grain size and numbers of grains. So this analogy to pixel site size and numbers of sites per sensor does not hold up.
I understand that the original question was not clearly stated and it would be difficult to answer but this ain't it.
Robert

120 film has more silver grains per unit of 'the window on a building' as rendered in the final image, compared to the number of grains in a 35mm film rendering the same window using equivelent focal length.

This is it, but I guess remembering the reference unit- a window on a building shot by equivelent lenses and framings- was lost by you.
 

rknewcomb

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Of course a 8x10 print from a medium format is less grainy than a 8x10 from 35mm but its because you start with a bigger piece of film on the 120 film, not because of any size difference in the photos sites ie: grain.

"F-stop is mathematically defined to be interchangeable across different focal lengths. f/4.0 on 28mm is the same as f/4/0 on 80mm as f/4.0 on 150mm, etc.

The issue with digital is the size of the individual pixels, not the 'amount of light.' The better low light performance is because a larger pixel has more light hitting it and requires less amplification to generate an actual image."

I totally agree with this very good part of your explanation.

Robert
 
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darinwc

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Wow, everyone is just slightly off their explanations.

First we need to correctly define the question, which was a bit ambiguous. If the question is:
"Given the same light source, does a 'normal' medium format lens with the same aperture value allow more light to pass through it than a 'normal' 35mm format lens.

The answer to that question absolutely"yes". In fact a 100mm f2 lens will allow 4x the light to pass through it compared to a 50mm f2 lens.
The aperture value is calculated by dividing the diameter of the aperture by the focal length of the lens.
A 50mm f2 lens has an aperture of 25mm diameter. And that circle has an area of 490 mmsq.
A 100mm f2 lens has an aperture of 50mm diameter. And that circle has an area of 1960 mmsq.

So yes, more light is entering the lens.

Now about how much light is hitting the film or sensor? Let us first set aside the notion of film or sensor size.
Let's talk first about a 1mm square "target".

"Given the same light source, does a 'normal' medium format lens with the same aperture value allow more light to reach a 1mm square target than a 'normal' 35mm format lens."

The answer to this question is "the same amount of light will hit the 1mm square target"

This is actually due to the inverse square law.
"The intensity of an effect such as illumination or gravitational force changes in inverse proportion to the square of the distance from the source."
That is 1/d^2, or 1/2500 for the 50mm lens vs 1/10000 for the 100mm lens.
You may notice that the light intensity of the light is 1/4th at 100mm what it is at 50mm.
So the 1/4 light intensity exactly cancels out the 4x total light entering the lens. And you get an equal amount of light hitting a 1mm square.

That is the great thing about the aperture value system. No matter if you have a 10mm f2 lens or a28mm f2 or a 593mm f2 lens, the same amount of light per mm square reaches your film or sensor.
 

darinwc

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So now let's talk about sensor size. Ignore film for now.
An APS sensor is roughly half the area of a full frame sensor. A normal lens no matter the focal length at f2 will allow the same amount of light per mm to hit the sensor.
However the full frame sensor is twice as big, so it collects a total of 2x more light.
So yes, this does allow larger sensors to collect more light and have effectively higher ISO without having to increase the amplification of the signal.
A good example is the Sony A7S camera, which has a full frame chip with lower resolution but very high effective ISO.
There are more nuances to this but this is not the right forum to discuss them.
 

darinwc

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Now about film.
A 35mm frame is roughly 24mm x 36mm. Medium format cameras have a variety of frame sizes but for math sake let's use 48mm x 72mm. That is 2x on each side but 4x total area.

So you can have the same relative focal length, the same aperture, the same film stock,and the same amount of light hitting each mm of film. But you have 4 times the area of film! That is like going from 16mp to 64mp!

Or, you could increase the ISO of your film from say 100 to 400 or even 800 and still get lovely detailed images.
 

etn

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There is nothing at all wrong with asking. Believe me, I still have to ask people to help me work my lenses.
I had a university prof who used to say, "No question is stupid as long as it is asked." I fully agree with the guy.
 

guangong

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Don't know about light but medium format takes a lot more money in that coin slot. And don't even think about large format. Worse than gambling...
My basic argument for spending money on cameras, film, chemicals, etc is that I don’t gamble.
As for screwing up, my capabilities in this area include all film sizes from Minox to 4x5, not to exclude Super 8 and 16mm movies.
Not a bad question, really, because it generated some interesting answers.
 

railwayman3

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What has film size to do with Aperture

f2 on 35mm is f2 on 8x10 is F2 on 120

Agreed. A scene requiring an exposure of (say) 1/250 at f/2, and using the same speed of film, would require the same exposure whether the camera film size were 35mm, 120 or 10x8. But the size of the glass on the necessary f/2 lens would be much larger for a 120 camera and quite huge for 10x8(!), to pass the necessary level of light to expose over the larger area of film.
 
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Agreed. A scene requiring an exposure of (say) 1/250 at f/2, and using the same speed of film, would require the same exposure whether the camera film size were 35mm, 120 or 10x8. But the size of the glass on the necessary f/2 lens would be much larger for a 120 camera and quite huge for 10x8(!), to pass the necessary level of light to expose over the larger area of film.
Agreed! So, if the earth got bigger, would the sun get dimmer due to greater surface area of the earth?
 

Luckless

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Though f/2 on 8X10 would be impressive...

I may have to get back into writing ray-tracers to play around with an 8x10 f/2, just to try to get an idea of what that would be like to work with...
 

railwayman3

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Agreed! So, if the earth got bigger, would the sun get dimmer due to greater surface area of the earth?

Obviously not. But I'm assuming that you would want an f/2 lens to cover the field of view/image for the size of film used? An f/2 50mm for a 35mm camera isn't going to be much use if fitted to a 10x8 camera; you would need a much longer focal length ("f") to give a "normal" field of view. So, to keep the aperture of f/2 (focal length divided by 2) and keep the level of illumination, and therefore the necessary exposure. on the larger area of film similar, a huge diameter of lens would be needed.
(And, going the other way, look at the tiny lens on your smartphone.....mine says it's f/2.2, with a focal length of 4.5mm, by coincidence the last image records this aperture and an exposure of 1/192 using an equivalent sensitivity of 100 ASA. The diameter of the lens is less than some of the objective lenses on my lab microscopes.)
 
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A 35mm f/2 lens won't cover a sheet of 8x10 film. For "Normal" perspective, you'll need at least a 300mm lens made for an 8x10. An any f/2 35mm would not cover 8x10 sheet of film. However, the 300mm would have a bigger aperture than than any 35mm lens. So you can think of it as bigger hole to cover a bigger piece of film. But f/2 is f/2.

Take a look at this.
https://photo.stackexchange.com/que...the-diameter-of-the-lens-aperture-in-mm-terms
 
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Now that we all agreed that f stops are the same across all lenses and gives us consistency, it would be nice if other areas of the photo world was just as consistent. 4:3, 1:1, 5:4, 6x7, 6x6, 3:2, 16:9. Then try to print those format with paper ratios of 8x10, 5x7, 3 1/2 x 5. How about displaying shots on monitors and TV's - 16:9. It's like trying to bang a round peg in a square hole.
 

railwayman3

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A 35mm f/2 lens won't cover a sheet of 8x10 film. For "Normal" perspective, you'll need at least a 300mm lens made for an 8x10. An any f/2 35mm would not cover 8x10 sheet of film. However, the 300mm would have a bigger aperture than than any 35mm lens. So you can think of it as bigger hole to cover a bigger piece of film. But f/2 is f/2.

Precisely the point I was trying to make, or at least endorse as already made by others, in my first posting above.
 

villagephotog

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To the OP: I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but I'll try to give some kind of useful response. You obviously ran across the idea of "equivalence" as it relates to digital photography and are wondering if it applies to film photography, too. The short answer is that it does, but for folks who cut their teeth in the film era (of which I am one) it's kind of an alien concept. Besides a handful of scientists, very few of us thought in those terms before people started delving into the quantum physics and information theory that underlies digital imaging (and film imaging, too, since it underlies everything in existence).

But first, I'll say that I think you need to get a clearer grasp of equivalence theory, what it's good for (it has fairly limited usefulness) and of how light falling on an object is measured and described. A big reason why you got such a confusing mix of answers to your questions is that your terminology is not very clear. So then:

I know for camera sensors, for example a micro 4/3 sensor is less sensitive to light than a full frame (35mm equivalent) sensor. At the same aperture and shutter speed, a full frame sensor is capable of much better low light performance because it takes in more light.

The phrase "sensitive to light" and "takes in more light" are a tangled knot here. For any given image that you frame the same way (i.e. let's say you take a picture of a red 1957 Pontiac that fills the image frame), with the same exposure settings, a full frame sensor does capture more _total light_ simply because it has a bigger area. Another way to think about this is that the image of the Pontiac is larger when you capture it on a FF sensor. But the light _per unit area_ will be the same if the f-stop (a.k.a. 'f-ratio' or 'relative aperture') and shutter speed are the same. So, intensity of light (not a scientific term) at any given point on the sensor would be the same, but the total amount of light used to form the image would be greater on the FF sensor. If you painted the Pontiac equally bright with red paint to fill a 5x7 canvas and then again to fill a 16x20 canvas, the luminance of the red paint would appear the same on both paintings but you'd have to use a lot more paint to make the 16 x 20.

With some very small exceptions, it's the greater total amount of light that allows the larger sensor to capture a higher quality image ("better low light performance", as you called it, is only one of the ways it's better). It actually has almost nothing to do with the size of the pixels, as some people think. This has been proven definitively. The reasons are rooted in quantum physics and the quantum nature of light. There are some tutorial articles at DPReview that will demonstrate this if you doubt it.

How about medium format, is it more light sensitive due to having a bigger "sensor" or "contact area"? For example, a 75mm 4.5 medium format lens, does it take in the same light at 4.5 as a 75mm 4.5 35mm film camera lens? Or more light?

So the answer here is yes, the larger film area has the same benefits for film as the larger sensor area has for digital. And it's for the same reasons, all rooted in quantum physics. But film photographers never talked about it in this way, so if you come to a great forum like this and ask equivalence questions, it seems like you're speaking a foreign language. But it's not a foreign language; film photographers know it intuitively, as follows:

Let's say your end goal is an 8x12" print of our 1957 Pontiac. So you take two pictures; one where you fill the frame of a 35mm negative on ISO 100 film and shoot the picture, and a second where you fill the frame of a 6x9 cm negative on the same film. [Note that to get the same depth of field you have to shoot the 6x9 camera at a bit more than two stops narrower aperture. That means you have to use a shutter speed that's about two stops slower. No biggie because, for this example, our Pontiac is not moving.]

Then you make 8 x 12" prints from the negative. Every film photographer knows the print from the 6x9 negative will be technically better; we say that the 6x9 negative requires much less enlargement to reach an 8 x 12 size and that's why it's better. But another way to say that is that the image is bigger on the 6x9 negative; it was formed with more total light. (Quantum physics rears its head!)

Now, let's extend this idea to the realm of "better low light performance". Let's shoot the Pontiac on our 6x9 camera using ISO 400 film instead of the ISO 100 film we used in the 35mm camera. Now, when we use a narrower aperture to equalize the depth of field, we don't have to bump our shutter speed down (because our film is two stops faster). We can use the same shutter speed in both cameras. So if our Pontiac was moving, the two pictures would still be the same -- same depth of field, same motion freezing effect.

And if we make 8 x 12 prints from the negatives, now they are (roughly) the same quality. Yes, the 6x9 negative is bigger and is enlarged less, but the ISO 400 film is grainier than the ISO 100 film (plus other differences) we used in the 35mm camera. So note: in the 6 x 9 camera, the higher ISO film (better low light capability) produces the same quality 8 x 12 print as ISO 100 film in the 35mm camera.

In that last scenario, we've also equalized depth of field and shutter speed. Every parameter is the same, and we end up with equal quality prints (within the limits of this approximation). This is all the equivalence theory does: it tells you what settings/parameters are needed to produce the same result on different sensor/film formats. In this case, to produce the same 8 x 12 print, in the 6x9 camera we would use iso ISO 400 film, two stops narrower aperture (compared to the 35mm camera), same shutter speed; and in the 35mm camera, ISO 100 film, two stops wider aperture, and same shutter speed.

Now, before those who really know their math chime in and say so: the equivalence theory difference (derived from imaging area) between 35mm and 6x9 is not exactly two stops; it's a bit more than that, but I simplified it to two stops for the purposes of illustration.

Is there some sort of "equivalency" in the numbering or is there any difference in metering here to be aware of...

As everyone else pointed out, no. There is no equivalence math to do when you're taking pictures. Absolutely no difference in metering. The f-stop or f-ratio denotes the same thing regardless of the size of your sensor/film. What it denotes is amount of light per unit area, (or intensity, if you like that word better) but not "amount of light" if you define that term as total light used to form the image.

The two things to be aware of that relate to equivalence are (assuming the same framing of the subject): compared to 35mm FF, you will need narrower apertures on medium format to achieve the same depth of field (how much narrower depends on which medium format you are using -- i.e. 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x9 etc) and you can use a higher ISO film on the medium format camera and get the same print quality as you would with lower ISO 35mm film _at any given print size_ (how much higher ISO again depends on the which medium format you are using). This last fact was not a big part of film era thinking -- most people used medium format to get a better print (or scan) with the same low ISO film they might use in their 35mm camera. But some wedding photographers relied on it, even if they didn't know they were; they could use ISO 400 film to extend the range of their flashes and otherwise make event shooting easier than it would have been with ISO 100 film, yet still provide very good quality proofs and enlargements from their medium format negatives. Much better than they would have been able to provide using ISO 400 film in a 35mm camera. Again, in those days we attributed this to the bigger negative that needs less enlargement for any given print size; but you can express it in equivalence terms by saying it's due to the bigger image, formed by more total light.

I didn't do a very good job of not going down this rabbit hole. Oh well.
 
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BSP

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Thank you for this quite rabbit-holesque expansion on the matter.
I can really relate to the inclusion of the quantum physical nature of exposure over time.
 

Chan Tran

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Medium format lens of the same focal length and aperture let in more light than one for 35mm camera. The light intensity is the same but area it lights is larger.
 

Luckless

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I feel like I need to make an over-sized Camera Obscura that I can fit some 35mm lenses to just to compare the differences in image circles and brightness...

Sadly I don't have any old manual 35mm lenses that I can stop down. [And the closest match I have is an 85mm Canon EF to an 80mm, which is less than ideal anyway, even if I had a way to reliably stop the EF down from f/1.8 to medium format's f2.8...]
 

DREW WILEY

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Ho hum. It's all about surface area in relation to the quantity of photons captured. Size matters. Godzilla stomps Bambi every time. Yes, there are numerous variables such as the mathematical relation of aperture to focal length, the relation of ASA to exposure time, the efficiency of specific types of film speed and grain etc etc. But in common sense language, something the size of an APS sensor is like the eye of an aphid, while a sheet of 8x10 film is like the eye of a Tyrannosaur. Forget about the Quantum implications of Alice running down the rabbit hole. The baby tyrannosaurs ate her too. That kind of thinking is probably why so few physicists are good photographers. They can tell you all about the physics of light, but can never figure out where to point a camera. If they try, they trip over their shoelaces first, because they don't know how to tie them.
 
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