Does filter quality matter?

[NB23]

Tiffen's thermal sandwich process allows for an especially wide selection of filter colors, but makes coating difficult, They offer just a handful of those.

There is absolutely nothing difficult in coating the glass that will, at a later stage serve to sandwich the color membrane/film/dye/gel...

 

[DREW WILEY]

NB23 - go tell Tiffen that if you know better, not me.

 

[Sirius Glass]

There is absolutely nothing difficult in coating the glass that will, at a later stage serve to sandwich the color membrane/film/dye/gel...

Tell Tiffen that and they will ask you to come in interview and then get hired to take over running the company. Congratulations on your new career.

 

[NB23]

Tell Tiffen that and they will ask you to come in interview and then get hired to take over running the company. Congratulations on your new career.

You tell Tiffen that and they will ask you to come in interview and then get hired to take over running the company. Congratulations on your new career.

 

[NB23]

NB23 - go tell Tiffen that if you know better, not me.

You go tell them that. You seem to be friends with them and know their secret processes that prohibits them to manufacture a product that is standard for all the other manufacturers...

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, 'scuse me for tempting a "real optical engineer" like yourself. Their process is unique. It doesn't involve dyed-en-masse glass, but a colored thermal film between two discs of glass. And yeah, they've only been doing it that way for the past 70 years, so it's perfectly understandable why you've never heard of the distinction. Everyone else has. Still in business in a niche market. They must be doing something right.

 

[AgX]

2 coatings is actually Multicoating.

Besides, there is no benefit to go beyond a few coats. We are not talking Painting walls here.

Multi means more than two.
I do not see why this does not apply to coatings.

Zeiss explicitely have it about one-, two-, three- and multilayer-coatings. But they do not specify the meaning of multilayers, but state that in optics 7 and more layers have been applied.
But the sheer number as such does not say much as the effect of a anti-reflective coating depends on the very case.

 

[AgX]

Tiffen's thermal sandwich process allows for an especially wide selection of filter colors, but makes coating difficult, They offer just a handful of those.

There is absolutely nothing difficult in coating the glass that will, at a later stage serve to sandwich the color membrane/film/dye/gel...

Exactly. The respective glass pane surfaces can be coated before lamination.

But one can argue that the lamination as such introduces image degradation which make such coatings less effective.

 

[greg zinselmeier]

This is a good thread. We are really getting into it now!!

I thought cheap tiffin filters were for protection. Not to be used during exposure. There “UV” filter is uncontested and like 7-10 bucks. Maybe 20.

There are filters Co.’s out there that have more strict standards for production, but cost more.

You get what you pay for!

I still use drop in series 6 filters on Zeiss Ikon Nettar. Uncoated triplet, where I machined a slip on step up filter ring to bridge the smaller dia. Of the Nettar, to series 6 drop in. It also has a lens shade.

It’s all the same to me.

However for my 67mm filters for LF. I have and do use a B+W multi coat. But I only bought one. I just buy lenses that have a 67mm . Fujinons. 210,250,300L,420L

But these lenses are all single coated.

One half dozen, or “six” to others???? Doesn’t make a real difference to me.

But then again, I just might have low standards, or poor quality of judgement and discernible taste.

Maybe somebody needs to take me to school. And show me “the real way” to make exposures

 

[NB23]

Well, first off; Multi means “more than one”.

Secondly; drew wiley can like it or not, but the glass can be coated before the lamination. Doh.

Thirdly; I don’t understand the sudden Love and protection for Tiffen filters, the cheapest on the market. What’s up with that?

 

[greg zinselmeier]

Well, first off; Multi means “more than one”.

Secondly; drew wiley can like it or not, but the glass can be coated before the lamination. Doh.

Thirdly; I don’t understand the sudden Love and protection for Tiffen filters, the cheapest on the market. What’s up with that?

Price!!! That’s the love for Tiffen. We all can’t buy the best, Well made camera (expensive) gear etc.

I get by with all used gear. I do buy tiffen for protection, but for exposure, I use my MC filter.

Idk where is the love for film? Out there in the commercial sector??? It’s all digital love because of price!!!

High quality is expensive!!! Whether it be buying a service or a product.

Only “ so many” people have the income to buy only the best.

 

[NB23]

Price!!! That’s the love for Tiffen. We all can’t buy the best, Well made camera (expensive) gear etc.

I get by with all used gear. I do buy tiffen for protection, but for exposure, I use my MC filter.

Idk where is the love for film? Out there in the commercial sector??? It’s all digital love because of price!!!

High quality is expensive!!! Whether it be buying a service or a product.

Only “ so many” people have the income to buy only the best.

Yes, price. Tiffen is the cheapest because they skip an important manufacturing step. Therefore cheapest and worst choice.

Just the other day I purchsed two 34mm tiffen polarizers for 3.50$ each.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Well, 'scuse me for tempting a "real optical engineer" like yourself. Their process is unique. It doesn't involve dyed-en-masse glass, but a colored thermal film between two discs of glass. And yeah, they've only been doing it that way for the past 70 years, so it's perfectly understandable why you've never heard of the distinction. Everyone else has. Still in business in a niche market. They must be doing something right.

Does the fact they're not coated mean anything?

 

[DREW WILEY]

In a practical sense, there are two factors. On the positive side, it allows Tiffen to still provide a very large selection of filter colors, some now longer available anywhere else. Negatively, the lack of coatings means the filters attract smudge and condensation a lot more easily, so need to be very frequently cleaned; and of course, you also have to be especially careful to shade them to prevent flare.

I use all kinds of filters, including Tiffen when necessary. There are many important scientific and technical lab and applications for filters beside just going out trying to differentiate clouds from blue sky. Even many of the Wratten specialty gel filters are now unavailable; and some of them were always quite expensive, fragile too. So there is a real need for Tiffen. They also make certain industrial filters regular photographers are generally unaware of.

NB23 seems to know how to "easy" it is to coat glass and then cement it all together at high temp, melting the transparent colored foil in between. I do have couple of Tiffens done that way, and it's obviously still a bit dicey. They really need to hire this guy to tell them how to do it right. To him, it's as easy as a grilled cheese sandwich, which of course, isn't transparent.

 

[NB23]

What’s so special about a color foil that the folks at B+H havent figured out? LOL

Let me Get this straight: each and every Tiffen filter has 4 glass surfaces and none of them are coated? That’s quite a recipe for bad optical performance. Oh wait... Tiffen filters regularly fall last when tested against other filters.

Maybe they should update their grilled cheeze manufacturing.

 

[Sirius Glass]

In a practical sense, there are two factors. On the positive side, it allows Tiffen to still provide a very large selection of filter colors, some now longer available anywhere else. Negatively, the lack of coatings means the filters attract smudge and condensation a lot more easily, so need to be very frequently cleaned; and of course, you also have to be especially careful to shade them to prevent flare.

I use all kinds of filters, including Tiffen when necessary. There are many important scientific and technical lab and applications for filters beside just going out trying to differentiate clouds from blue sky. Even many of the Wratten specialty gel filters are now unavailable; and some of them were always quite expensive, fragile too. So there is a real need for Tiffen. They also make certain industrial filters regular photographers are generally unaware of.

NB23 seems to know how to "easy" it is to coat glass and then cement it all together at high temp, melting the transparent colored foil in between. I do have couple of Tiffens done that way, and it's obviously still a bit dicey. They really need to hire this guy to tell them how to do it right. To him, it's as easy as a grilled cheese sandwich, which of course, isn't transparent.

There will always be the cheapest company. I have and own some Tiffen filters and while I usually prefer the high end filters, I have been happy with Tiffen filters and I have never had a negative experience with Tiffen filters. In all the negativity expressed about Tiffen filters, not one specific documented piece of information has been posted so far.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Tiffen is nowhere near the cheapest. But they do need to make a very broad selection in order to maintain their business niche. Of course, NB23 is going to loan them several million dollars to completely upgrade their R&D and manufacturing model. Good luck with transparent cheese.

There's no need to hypothetically coat the inner surfaces of the sandwiching glass because that's not an air interface like a lens. The thermal foil bonds the whole thing tightly together..... duuuuhhhhhh.

 

[BrianShaw]

I understand that Tiffen aren't the top-o-the-line in terms of filters, but never had an image fail because of using one. Most of my filters are coated or multi-coated but some are Tiffen. It's rather amazing to me that a couple of random individuals on the internet seem to know more than the filter manufacturer, who has a robust (and seemingly successful) history in making filters and providing them to critical users such as the Hollywood film crowd.

 

[NB23]

In all the negativity expressed about Tiffen filters, not one specific documented piece of information has been posted so far.

You sure follow your own agenda. For your info, there has not been specific doumented info for any positivity about Tiffen, either.

Besides, it is well documented that coated filters are better. That tiffen filter are not Coated... and so on.

It would be good if you got off your own contrarian, trolling agenda.

 

[NB23]

I understand that Tiffen aren't the top-o-the-line in terms of filters, but never had an image fail because of using one. Most of my filters are coated or multi-coated but some are Tiffen. It's rather amazing to me that a couple of random individuals on the internet seem to know more than the filter manufacturer, who has a robust (and seemingly successful) history in making filters and providing them to critical users such as the Hollywood film crowd.

Most if not all of Saul Leiter’s iconic shots we’re done through thick hazy and dirty store windows, therefore proving without a doubt that a bad filter will never ruin a good shot.

This is why you can use a Tiffen without hesitation. But for the sake of this discussion, Tiffen is always rated last, for a reason.

 

[NB23]

Tiffen is nowhere near the cheapest. But they do need to make a very broad selection in order to maintain their business niche. Of course, NB23 is going to loan them several million dollars to completely upgrade their R&D and manufacturing model. Good luck with transparent cheese.

There's no need to hypothetically coat the inner surfaces of the sandwiching glass because that's not an air interface like a lens. The thermal foil bonds the whole thing tightly together..... duuuuhhhhhh.

Man (or woman?), glueing 2 surface is problematic. One reason MORE to coat the 2 outer surfaces.

Just drop it. You can never win this argument. All the tests are out there, anyhow

 

[Sirius Glass]

You sure follow your own agenda. For your info, there has not been specific doumented info for any positivity about Tiffen, either.

Besides, it is well documented that coated filters are better. That tiffen filter are not Coated... and so on.

It would be good if you got off your own contrarian, trolling agenda.

How does on document that no filters have shown flares during my usage?

 

[NB23]

I understand that Tiffen aren't the top-o-the-line in terms of filters, but never had an image fail because of using one. Most of my filters are coated or multi-coated but some are Tiffen. It's rather amazing to me that a couple of random individuals on the internet seem to know more than the filter manufacturer, who has a robust (and seemingly successful) history in making filters and providing them to critical users such as the Hollywood film crowd.

From a random individual to another: it’s totally Basic knowledge that still protography requires much more vigorous equipment than cinema.

Basically, the best example is hair and dust, which are enemies to still photography but not with motion pictures.
Sharpness is another concept not merely as important for motion.

And so on.

You seem very impressed by the term “Hollywood” and not very informed on the basic differences of still vs motion photography worlds.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

IF Tiffen doesn't coat their graduated ND filters, which manufacturers do?

 

[250swb]

I don't know if this has been dropped into the discussion before, but the Leica UV cut filters needed for the Leica M8 were made by Marumi. And despite the low price of Marumi badged filters they are clearly a company who can make filters to be proudly badged by other parties. So if filter quality matters it should be morphed into 'does filter price matter'. Personally I have some Marumi filters (usually odd sizes like 40.5mm) that are as good as B+W MRC filters for the ability to clean the filter with a tee shirt and come perfectly clean in one swipe. Great for street photography. It should also be remembered that all of Leica's filters are made by other companies, yet Leica charge a whole lot more for them than if you sourced a Heliopan etc.

So my take is that nowadays the higher quality of the average branded filter has nothing much to do with the quality of the optics, it's more about the ability of the coating to shrug off grease and dirt.