Does D-76 take longer to fix?

Worker 11811 · Mar 21, 2010

I previously developed a bunch of T-Max in T-Max developer and it only took about 10 minutes to completely fix the film. I really wasn't feeling the love for T-Max developer so I switched to D-76. Now it seems like it's taking nearly 15 minutes for the film to totally clear. After 10 minutes the film is still pink.

At first I thought it was because my fixer was getting used up so I mixed up a fresh batch of Kodafix @ 1 fixer + 3 water. It still takes more than 10 minutes.

I don't mind letting the film work longer if that's what it takes. I've developed film in the past and I don't remember it taking so long but I am more used to Tri-X and Plus-X developed in D-76.

I have always taken the lid off the tank after 5 minutes then checked it every few minutes, agitated it and, when the film is completely clear, give it a couple more minutes. It usually takes no more than 10 minutes.

I always use stop bath and I always rinse between the stop and the fixer.

So, does it just take longer to fix the film if you developed it in D-76?

pellicle · Mar 21, 2010

I can't think of any logical reason for it to

my film clears in 2 min

take a snip of film in full daylight (off the end of the roll perhaps) and drop it into the fixer ... watch it to see how long it takes to become clear. This is then your clearing time. It is independent of developer as far as I know.

are you sure you've mixed your fixer according to the directions?

Worker 11811 · Mar 21, 2010

I didn't think there should be a difference.

I make it by the liter: 250 ml of concentrate and 750 ml of water. Stored in a screw top, plastic bottle. I recycle fixer until it stops working as well as it should. Thus, the question at hand. When the fixer stopped working as I think it should, I replaced it but it was only a little bit better.

I dumped out the old fixer, rinsed out the bottle with tap water then washed it out with a small amount of castile soap and rinsed again. Then I took the hose from the faucet, put it down in the bottle and "power washed" it until the bottle was totally clean.

I mixed up the fresh batch with 250 ml. concentrate to 750 ml water like always then let it set for a couple of hours. I use it straight from the bottle as usual.

This last batch of film came out of the developer at 8 min. after the hour. After approx 30 sec. in stop bath and another 30 sec. in clean water, I put in the fix. Agitated for 1 minute continuously. Let it sit for 4 min. coming back every so often to agitate. After that time, I take off the lid. There is usually always a little bit of pink but it goes away after another 5 minutes of sitting with occasional agitation. (Swishing the reel in the open tank.)

This previous roll should have been completely clear with no pink by 19 minutes after the hour but it still took another 5 min. to get clear.

Once the film is clear, I start cleaning out my utensils and putting them away. By the time that is done, I'm ready to take the film out of the fixer, rinse treat in Photo-Flo and hang it up to dry.

I won't be ready to do another batch for a few days I'll be extra careful and if it takes too long I'll dump this batch of fixer and make a new batch using a new bottle of concentrate.

The film is eventually clearing. It's just taking about twice as long as it normally does. According to my experience, that is the sign that it's time to freshen or replace your fixer.

When I put my film on the reel I usually clip off the tab at the beginning of the roll. I'll dig a couple of them out of the waste basket and do the test like you mention and I'll put a stopwatch on it and let you know the results.

Loris Medici · Mar 21, 2010

Worker11811,

I don't have any explanation either. (Be it simple or elaborate.)

Maybe a too obvious and ordinary suggestion but:
Test like pellicle does, and determine how much time takes the film to clear - BTW, I'm not talking about clearing of the dye, I'm talking about the silver halide. Your nominal fixing time will be 2x of what you've determined right before, and more than this isn't necessary at all; just give enough washing / rinse to get rid of the dye. 15 minutes seems to be about normal to me... (But I must admit I never used TMax developer before, only D76, Xtol and Pyrocat-MC.)

Regards,
Loris.

donbga · Mar 21, 2010

Worker 11811 said:
I previously developed a bunch of T-Max in T-Max developer and it only took about 10 minutes to completely fix the film. I really wasn't feeling the love for T-Max developer so I switched to D-76. Now it seems like it's taking nearly 15 minutes for the film to totally clear. After 10 minutes the film is still pink.

At first I thought it was because my fixer was getting used up so I mixed up a fresh batch of Kodafix @ 1 fixer + 3 water. It still takes more than 10 minutes.

I don't mind letting the film work longer if that's what it takes. I've developed film in the past and I don't remember it taking so long but I am more used to Tri-X and Plus-X developed in D-76.

I have always taken the lid off the tank after 5 minutes then checked it every few minutes, agitated it and, when the film is completely clear, give it a couple more minutes. It usually takes no more than 10 minutes.

I always use stop bath and I always rinse between the stop and the fixer.

So, does it just take longer to fix the film if you developed it in D-76?

Fix TMAX for 5 minutes in fresh fixer. Wash briefly in water - about 1 minute, followed by Kodak hypoclear or similar product - then wash. The pink will be gone.

Don't fix your film for 15 minutes - bad practice.

Don

pschwart · Mar 21, 2010

Worker 11811 said:
I didn't think there should be a difference.

I make it by the liter: 250 ml of concentrate and 750 ml of water. Stored in a screw top, plastic bottle. I recycle fixer until it stops working as well as it should. Thus, the question at hand. When the fixer stopped working as I think it should, I replaced it but it was only a little bit better.

I dumped out the old fixer, rinsed out the bottle with tap water then washed it out with a small amount of castile soap and rinsed again. Then I took the hose from the faucet, put it down in the bottle and "power washed" it until the bottle was totally clean.

I mixed up the fresh batch with 250 ml. concentrate to 750 ml water like always then let it set for a couple of hours. I use it straight from the bottle as usual.

This last batch of film came out of the developer at 8 min. after the hour. After approx 30 sec. in stop bath and another 30 sec. in clean water, I put in the fix. Agitated for 1 minute continuously. Let it sit for 4 min. coming back every so often to agitate. After that time, I take off the lid. There is usually always a little bit of pink but it goes away after another 5 minutes of sitting with occasional agitation. (Swishing the reel in the open tank.)

This previous roll should have been completely clear with no pink by 19 minutes after the hour but it still took another 5 min. to get clear.

Once the film is clear, I start cleaning out my utensils and putting them away. By the time that is done, I'm ready to take the film out of the fixer, rinse treat in Photo-Flo and hang it up to dry.

I won't be ready to do another batch for a few days I'll be extra careful and if it takes too long I'll dump this batch of fixer and make a new batch using a new bottle of concentrate.

The film is eventually clearing. It's just taking about twice as long as it normally does. According to my experience, that is the sign that it's time to freshen or replace your fixer.

When I put my film on the reel I usually clip off the tab at the beginning of the roll. I'll dig a couple of them out of the waste basket and do the test like you mention and I'll put a stopwatch on it and let you know the results.

Overfixing is bad. All my film/developer combos are thoroughly fixed in 5 minutes using a variety of fixers. Maybe there is something in your tap water that is inhibiting the fixer?

Worker 11811 · Mar 21, 2010

Too much fixer contaminates the emulsion and makes the image degrade. Right? Although I don't use hypo clear I always rinse my film in running water for at least 20 minutes. I've got 20 year old negatives that were done that way and still look as good as new.

I did the test. I looked in the trash can and found the tail off the last roll of film I developed and cut it into 5 pieces. I put them all in a plastic cup, poured in a good dose of fixer and took one piece of film out every two minutes. After 10 minutes the last piece of film still wasn't clear.

It looks like this batch of fixer is beat.
Guess I'll have to make a new batch.

I didn't think a film-developer combo would have an effect of fixing time. I just wanted to be sure. I did everything just the way I have always done. Maybe there's something contaminating the bottle.

donbga · Mar 22, 2010

Worker 11811 said:
Too much fixer contaminates the emulsion and makes the image degrade. Right? Although I don't use hypo clear I always rinse my film in running water for at least 20 minutes. I've got 20 year old negatives that were done that way and still look as good as new.

I did the test. I looked in the trash can and found the tail off the last roll of film I developed and cut it into 5 pieces. I put them all in a plastic cup, poured in a good dose of fixer and took one piece of film out every two minutes. After 10 minutes the last piece of film still wasn't clear.

It looks like this batch of fixer is beat.
Guess I'll have to make a new batch.

I didn't think a film-developer combo would have an effect of fixing time. I just wanted to be sure. I did everything just the way I have always done. Maybe there's something contaminating the bottle.

I don't use hypo-clear for my film either. I use minimal fixing time and do a slow wash in a good film washer. Since the film base is plastic there isn't nearly the as much fixer absorbed like fixing fiber based paper. So a slow wash in a good film washer will do the trick.

However if you can't get the pink stain out with normal fixing times and washing then hypoclear is your answer. I follow the manufacturers instructions for fixer capacity with a little fudge factor. I also test for residual silver after each fix. With my fudge factor it's never an issue. However I think some darkroom workers waste fixer unecessarily in the beleif that fixer should be used one shot. Fixer is usually the most expensive chemical in B&W processing and it doesn't make dollars and cents to use it one shot.

David Vestal's books are great resources for darkroom practice even though they are long in the tooth. They can be found cheaply on the net at online used book sellars. The Darkroom Cookbook is also a good reference to have and was revised recently.

Don

wclark5179 · Jan 23, 2011

Some will probably do the Colbert finger wag at me, when I rinse T-Max film I will use water that's around 80 degrees. Not too high though because reticulation can happen! I fill the film developing tank with the 80 degree wash water, let soak for 8 to 10 minutes. Pour out, the water probably will be pink. Do this around 5 changes of water in the tank. You can gradually reduce the temp. once you see the pink is gone off the film down to around the develop temp you used.

Try it on a roll you could sacrifice and see if it works for you.

I agree, too long of time in fixer isn't a good idea.

Hope this helps you!

Bob Carnie · Jan 23, 2011

I think there is no mileage whatsoever in reusing fixer. One shot fresh is IMO the only way to go.

xorg · Jan 16, 2022

I realize this is an old thread, but I recently observed a similar phenomenon. I think what is actually happening is the tmax developer has something in it that strips the dye to some degree during development, either intentionally or as a side effect. It only appears that the film hasn't fixed as well after the same amount of fixing when going from tmax developer to d-76, but really it is just that the dye has not been washed out to the same degree at that point.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 17, 2022

Worker 11811 said:
I previously developed a bunch of T-Max in T-Max developer and it only took about 10 minutes to completely fix the film. I really wasn't feeling the love for T-Max developer so I switched to D-76. Now it seems like it's taking nearly 15 minutes for the film to totally clear. After 10 minutes the film is still pink.
No, texting depends on the film not on the developer used. Are you using T-Grain films by any chance?
, because they take the longest to fix. If you do, you may want to consider a two-fixer bath regiment.

I don't mind letting the film work longer if that's what it takes. I've developed film in the past and I don't remember it taking so long but I am more used to Tri-X and Plus-X developed in D-76.

I have always taken the lid off the tank after 5 minutes then checked it every few minutes, agitated it and, when the film is completely clear, give it a couple more minutes. It usually takes no more than 10 minutes.

I always use stop bath and I always rinse between the stop and the fixer.

So, does it just take longer to fix the film if you developed it in D-76?

lantau · Jan 17, 2022

When I started with film I used Tri-X as my first film. Developed in Rodinal, which was convenient to get started. When I switched to D76 I, too, noticed the purple dye. My guess was that the dye won't dissolve as easily at the buffered, lower pH of D76 and many other developers. Rodinal should have a fairly high pH, though it is heavily diluted. I guess I should check the actual pH the next time I'll use it.

BMbikerider · Jan 17, 2022

TMax films are renown for taking a little bit longer than normal films. ( EG FP4 ) but that had nothing to do with the fixing time, I would suggest that it is more likely to be the state of the fixer and it is approaching exhaustion.

reddesert · Jan 19, 2022

Old Gregg said:
I don't use TMax films, but the subject of the pink residue keeps popping up here. Again, I have no personal experience with this, but "underfixing" just doesn't sound right. Fixer's job is to dissolve silver, which isn't pink. Sounds like TMax films needs a lot of washing, no?

This is an old thread and should be moved to a different forum. The pink color in T-max films is a dye of some kind, I think a sensitizing dye. It comes out quickly if you use a wash aid like Perma Wash or hypo clearing agent. It should not be used as a gauge of whether the film is completely fixed. It is possible that the dye dissolves differently in different developers.

MattKing · Jan 19, 2022

reddesert said:
This is an old thread and should be moved to a different forum.

Right on both counts! I'll move it.

NB23 · Jan 19, 2022

The pink disappears under uv light.

tri-x pink specifically never goes away completely.

ruilourosa · Jan 19, 2022

Drink pink!

ruilourosa · Jan 19, 2022

Fixing for 15 min with a acid rapid fixer could Bleach some silver...

I usually give a 5 min 25 ºc plain water bath to remove that pink cast

Juan Valdenebro · Jan 19, 2022

Maybe what I do is not the best idea, but I wonder if some others do it: I use and reuse a liter of stock fixer until it starts to be just a little weak, and then I start a new liter...

Moose22 · Jan 19, 2022

Juan Valdenebro said:
Maybe what I do is not the best idea, but I wonder if some others do it: I use and reuse a liter of stock fixer until it starts to be just a little weak, and then I start a new liter...

That is exactly what I do. I'm using the slow Kodak hardening fixer right now, though when it's exhausted I intend to move to a rapid fixer.

When I started using it, I'd just toss a leader in some fixer to know how long it normally took. Now I have an idea with some different films. I use 1 liter bottles and after 10 or 12 rolls on that first liter I started testing every time before I started developing. When it cleared more slowly I used another liter.

Juan Valdenebro · Jan 19, 2022

Good to know... I do it with the non rapid Kodak fixer, and I have not seen problems in years.
Of course using two fixers is the right thing to do.

Bronson Dugnutt · Jan 19, 2022

Moose22 said:
I use 1 liter bottles and after 10 or 12 rolls on that first liter I started testing every time before I started developing. When it cleared more slowly I used another liter.

Same here. I decant 1L at a time from a 5 gallon headpack of distilled water and Arista odorless fixer powder. No problems with precipitates during storage.

It's a non-rapid, non-hardening formula, but adding a bit of ammonium chloride can help speed clearing times, especially with t-grain films.

The silver present in exhausted fixer can be precipitated by addition of a saturated iodide solution (e.g. KI) for safer disposal and potential reclamation of the silver.

Edit: Regarding the pink dye found in tmax and certain C-41 emulsions, after fixing I find it takes about 15 minutes in 3 water changes to fully clear the dye. I suppose acts an anti-halation layer and serves to boost film speed, particularly under tungsten lighting.

NB23 · Jan 20, 2022

1L ilford 1:4 rapidfix/hypam fixes 24 36exposure rolls.

Bill Burk · Jan 20, 2022

The pink comes out in the wash! Milky yellow is what to beware as a sign of insufficient fixing.

So a different developer might wash out the pink, making it seem like you need less fix.

But that’s because you were trying to clear the pink.

Does D-76 take longer to fix?

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