Does anyone here beleive that Nikon/Canon could make lenses as good as Leica/Zeiss?

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railwayman3

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As a schoolboy in the late 1960's (with my little Kodak Colorsnap), I remember admiring the slides produced by several members and speakers at the Local Photo Club. One guy in the club used Nikons, another Leicas and I remember a Kodak lecturer used a Retina Reflex.......to my eyes the results were amazing ! Even my Dad's Exakta gear produced great slide shows and prints.
(And, of course, all on Kodachrome.....)

And every one of those members now meets in the Great Darkroom above....

Time to stop worrying, check priorities, and get out and enjoy taking some pictures, I think. :smile:
 

Dan Fromm

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Now we troll the Yuletide carol

Deutschland uber alles
 

Jim Jones

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Hey, everyone, this is a troll. And you have all bitten at the bait?

No discussion points from the OP at all, just a quick and short post on the "I just think that" basis.

Time wasting...

Is this what APUG is now down to? Soon we will be as bad as p... no, I won't name it.

Small things amuse... but I remember this site as it was, and I expect better.

Disgusted.
Perhaps true, but even a troll can start a thread that somehow leads to an intelligent discussion. As for actual use, I've used Leica since 1953 and Nikon since 1967. The five Leica lenses in my M4 kit are all great as were a few others used earlier. Nikon lenses are usually good, but they have rushed a few into production that should have been better. As fstop suggests in post #22, the photographer is more important than the lens. fstop may appreciate the Rokkor 45mm LTM lens I used briefly in 1953 that certainly was the equal of the Elmar 50mm f/3.5 that came with a Leica iiif. Also, I sometimes use a 400mm Vivitar on a Nikon that beats Nikon's own lenses. Lenses, like people, should be judged by performance and not by name.
 

Helinophoto

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Well, with 100 years of experience in making 50's, I would believe Leica should be pretty much top of the line there.

But let them make a 70-200 F2.8 with image-stabilization and super-fast focus and see how they do.
- And the price...? ^^

"Color" AND "magic" are key words for "my god" AND "i spend too much money on this".
 

Eric Rose

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I could care less. It's more about vision, artistic interpretation and the technical skill to realize your vision as a completed photograph. The OP sounds more like a troll posting than a legit question.
 

pdeeh

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Eric Rose said:
I could care less.
The OP sounds more like a troll posting than a legit question.

do you mean that you couldn't care less?
anyhoo, I certainly couldn't care less.

but I don't think the op is trolling.

it's just one of those questions that discussions about have no consequences.
canon nikon leica zeiss whoever ... none of them give a hoot about what a bunch of armchair experts at apug think:D
 
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flavio81

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I mean, they lack the experience in taking optics to the nth degree. And I don't what to hear how the Nikon 20mm 1.8 G beats the pants off the Zeiss-for-Nikon 21mm. The Zeiss will have sparkle & a mysterious color that even Leica can' match. Cheers

Chip, why do you say this?

Canon has lens patents since 1948; in the early 50s they patented a new 50/1.8 gauss lens with an improved type of correction {Canon Serenar 50/1.8}, patented both in Japan and in Germany, and afterwards the comparable Leitz(Leica) lens had to use a different, more complex design to achieve the same performance.

Nikon and Asahi Optical (Pentax) were making optics even before Canon.

Back in the mid 1950s some photojournalists back in the USA were widely vocal in saying that Nikon rangefinder lenses were better than the comparable Zeiss product, and this is what got the Nikon name rolling.

Nowadays you will find many forumers that will tell you that most of the 1950s Leica Screwmount Lenses are not better than the Nikon and Canon lenses of the same period. Ebay prices are still high for those lenses.

What is the reason for all this? In Germany there was a lot of patent protection and companies had to do all sorts of tricks to prevent stepping on each others' patents. In Japan after the war there was a lot of collaboration between camera and optics companies, promoted by the government. And they could use (steal) all the WWII german patents at will, since those did not apply to Japan. The initial, japanese lenses (up to about the late 1940s-early 1950s) were straight copies of German designs, but immediately afterwards new Japanese designs started to appear.

Many "Carl Zeiss" lenses of so much prestige nowadays are made by the TOMIOKA factory in Japan. So we can more or less say that those lenses are Yashica lenses.

Now in 2016 if you want to compare Zeiss versus Nikon/Canon, you need to compare lenses with similar price tags and similar focal length+fstop configuration. When you can charge more, you can use higher precision and more expensive (better) glass types. When you build a slower lens, you can extract more performance, so for example a 50/2.0 of the same price than a 50/1.2 will theoretically be even more corrected. When you build a slightly longer lens, you can achieve better performance; that's why a 21mm lens, all else being equal, can be slightly better corrected than a 20mm lens and so on.

When you are not constrained to buying a compact lens, the designers can throw compactness down the drain and correct (improve) performance even further which is the case with the new Sigma "ART" lenses or the Zeiss Otus.

For example look at the Zeiss Otus 55/1.4, look everything that has in its favor:
- To hell with compactness
- No autofocus so we can use tighter precision on the focusing helicoids (more performance)
- 55mm instead of 50mm
- Price USD 4000.

Which is better, that lens? Or a Nikon 50/1.4G that at USD 450 can give good enough sharpness for many use, is vastly more compact, costs 10x less, and has autofocus?

None is better, because we're not comparing similar lenses. So we can't conclude Zeiss made a better lens! And now, i dare to say that if Canon wished to make a USD 4000 "55/1.4L" manual focus lens, they would make a better product than the Zeiss Otus. This because if i'm not mistaken their R&D budget is bigger, not because they had better engineers, etc.
 
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blockend

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For surveillance and medical purposes lens sharpness is important. For creative photography a lens needs to be sharp enough to tell the story. A story that relies on sharpness alone is not one I care to listen to.
 

flavio81

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For surveillance and medical purposes lens sharpness is important. For creative photography a lens needs to be sharp enough to tell the story. A story that relies on sharpness alone is not one I care to listen to.

Well, in this the OP (Chip J) has a point; the japanese manufacturers in the last 25 years or so, have been too obsessed with sharpness and getting a good result on the (stupid) DxO tests.

While Zeiss and Leica instead did not overlook the fact that a lens should also have nice out of focus rendering, nice color rendering, etc.
 

DWThomas

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I seem to recall that back in maybe the 1960s there were a lot of super precise non-photographic (or non-consumer) optical devices produced by Japanese makers, Nikon in particular, so methinks the notion they "lack experience" or ability is a bit flimsy.

And then in real life we find a lens with 150 lppm and shoot handheld -- so where are we?! :outlaw:
 

Pioneer

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Personally I kind of like my little MC Vivitar 50/1.7.

It is chock full of flaws! :smile:

 
OP
OP

chip j

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Just LOOK into a Contax G lens in the shade. You will find mystery that makes you wonder about the true nature of reality--it's like an opening into a another universe inhabited by the Gods. ( I am a devout Christian, BTW, and have taken many GREAT pictures over 50 yrs, a fair number of which most of you wouldn't appreciate).
 

Dali

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OK, OK...
 

Pioneer

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Just LOOK into a Contax G lens in the shade. You will find mystery that makes you wonder about the true nature of reality--it's like an opening into a another universe inhabited by the Gods. ( I am a devout Christian, BTW, and have taken many GREAT pictures over 50 yrs, a fair number of which most of you wouldn't appreciate).

Have you been to Colorado recently??
 

MattKing

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I have a friend who has a lot of experience servicing Leica rangefinder equipment. He marvels how poorly their lenses are when it comes to how the elements are positioned and seated within the lens barrels. Many "pressed" fittings where others use more expensive and more easily and accurately adjusted methods. He considers the outside of the lenses to be of much higher quality than the inner mechanisms.

I wonder if that is because of the fact that they use a lot more hand assembly.
 

Paul Howell

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Although I agree that the question is a Rorschach test my take is that I cannot see any meaningful difference in modern pro level lens, Canon L, Nikon ED, Minolta/Sony G, Pentax Limited Edition and Sigma Art lens are as sharp as Zeiss, the Sigma 50 1.4 art lens is likely the sharpest 50mm on the market, true contrast varies, but not enough to keep me from buying any of the pro level lens. Not sure how to fit Sony/Zeiss, designed by Zeiss but made in a number of factories across Asia. Alpa got it right when they bought the best lens from around the world and tested each lens and if needed rebuilt it to make sure tolerances were spot on.
 

Luckless

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The question of whether someone can make a lens with a given quality and set of specifications while using modern optical design software and materials is answered with "Yes, pretty much anyone reasonably competent with the tech and access to reasonable tooling can make such a lens".

Making a lens is actually not that hard of a task. Care and attention to detail is required of course, along with time, but optics are not some black magic needing arcane spells to produce. The tricky part about building a lens is building lots of them, and still making a profit. Plus the added fun of not stepping on patent law, given how much that can smack your profits down.
 

michr

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Here's a troll snack: I'd put any Wollensak lens up against the best Zeiss has to offer. They have creamy bokeh, glow, 3d rendering, what have you, and pin sharp in-focus areas. Their only real downside is that anyone can own one and talk about its features and capabilities. But what do I know, I only use lenses for taking photos, not splitting hairs.
 

Dali

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So far, we have sparkle, mysterious color, true nature of reality, another universe and Gods.

Any higher offer?
 

Leigh B

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{I} have taken many GREAT pictures over 50 yrs, a fair number of which most of you wouldn't appreciate).
Yeah, we unwashed heathens have no business looking at photos in the first place, since we can't understand them.

What we can understand is commonly called GAVNO (it's Russian... look it up).

- Leigh
 

ic-racer

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I mean, they lack the experience in taking optics to the nth degree. And I don't what to hear how the Nikon 20mm 1.8 G beats the pants off the Zeiss-for-Nikon 21mm. The Zeiss will have sparkle & a mysterious color that even Leica can' match. Cheers
Nikon is the state of the art 35mm lens maker, though, mostly zooms. Many Zeiss designs are years old. Same with Leitz.
 
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