Does anyone else here use a 'reference print' in the darkroom?

[Finny]

Be Safe and Godspeed.

no, never done! In fact, it depends on film, developers, papers... you just have to learn to see and to feel

 

[Vaughn]

We did keep a piece of photopaper, about 4x5, in the darkroom that was pure black on one half and white on the other. Holes were punched on both halves and you could put it over your print to see if you had a good white and a good black on your print.

The walls of the darkroom (the light side), hallways and classroom were covered with recent student photographs -- plenty to compare with.

 

[BradS]

Reference print? First I've heard of it. Interesting idea but....not sure how useful it would be. Wouldn't dry down be an issue?

 

[DWThomas]

Reference print? First I've heard of it. Interesting idea but....not sure how useful it would be. Wouldn't dry down be an issue?

I recall years ago someone describing keeping a reference print and submerging it in a tray of water to use for comparison. I'd think that poor defenseless print might not hold up too well, but maybe for a one or two time small series it would help in getting a consistent result.

 

[Vaughn]

Using a toned print as an example for printing in the darkroom would be a little odd...taking into the tonal changes that can happen during toning. Having a toned print next to one's toning tray makes sense -- but one would have to pull the print out of the toner before it starts to look like the example, since toning usually continues some after removal from the tray.

 

[eli griggs]

Using a toned print as an example for printing in the darkroom would be a little odd...taking into the tonal changes that can happen during toning. Having a toned print next to one's toning tray makes sense -- but one would have to pull the print out of the toner before it starts to look like the example, since toning usually continues some after removal from the tray.

Yes, the 'master print' of which this is a toned copy, is no toned, and has a more pleasing appearance, however, I can see without it what is happening in a new print as it develops, well enough that I can pre-visualize the dry-down to a pretty close combination of speed and f-stop.

I think years of avoiding RC papers for good quality fiber paper helps, though I have too much RC and variable fiber on hand to no us it now.

I really dislike using contrast filters in the darkroom and I really must become more steady in the use of them, especially for split printing.

I have spent years developing films to print to a grade 3 Gallerie, Oriental Seagull, etc fiber paper, and I need to make a series of comparisons from FB #3 to MG FB and RC MG, in the Ansco 130 that I am mixing up and using.

Cheers, Be Safe and Be Happy.

 

[Vaughn]

Same here -- my silver printing was all on Grade 3 Gallerie Glossy and Portriga Rapid III. With occasional split-grading with Selectol-Soft (ie, to a 2.75 or 2.5 grade)

But I agree, with experience one can comfortably predict dry-down etc. I printed slowly -- perhaps working on a 4x5 neg and a pkg of ten 16x20 sheets for ten to 12 hours. Lots of time spent with the prints.

 

[warden]

We did keep a piece of photopaper, about 4x5, in the darkroom that was pure black on one half and white on the other. Holes were punched on both halves and you could put it over your print to see if you had a good white and a good black on your print.

That's a good idea. Better than a reference print I think.

 

[Vaughn]

That's a good idea. Better than a reference print I think.

The last thing we wanted was to tell students what their prints should look like, such as some arbitrary image on FB paper. As a starting point, I'd ask is what they wanted their image to look like.

The other thing I said a lot was, "No, this is Humboldt County...no one at this university is that tan in the winter -- lighten em up a bit."

 

[BradS]

The last thing we wanted was to tell students what their prints should look like, such as some arbitrary image on FB paper. As a starting point, I'd ask is what they wanted their image to look like.

The other thing I said a lot was, "No, this is Humboldt County...no one at this university is that tan in the winter -- lighten em up a bit."

If I had a time machine....I think I'd like to go back about twenty years or so and take some of those photo classes at CSUH.

 

[Vaughn]

Yeah, but I worked our 'older' students hard -- got them to volunteer a shift or two a week in the darkroom, I'd make them go out photographing with me (one of my favorite images in the redwoods was taken in an older student's tripod holes, hee hee!), make them learn new stuff, and so forth! I wqsn't going to let someone take up a spot and not put the effort in!

HSU photo does seem to be coming around. After getting rid of me, making an adjunct professor take care of the darkroom, and reducing the wet classes (to put more emphasis and $ on digital -- and also a power-move by a new professor), I just read that they are having beginning wet photo classes again.

 

[Sirius Glass]

No, and now that I use Dektol and time for 2 minutes I do not develop by guessing while the print is developing. I look at the result after fixing and turn on the light, if necessary.

 

[warden]

No, and now that I use Dektol and time for 2 minutes I do not develop by guessing while the print is developing. I look at the result after fixing and turn on the light, if necessary.

I think that's a good approach. Time in developer is not a variable for me either. Time under the enlarger light is. Removing one variable helps me.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I never settle on a print until I've viewed it toned and fully dried with fresh eyes under more than one light source. When in doubt, it's better to undertone it and then if necessary tone it some more, or come back and bleach the highlights a bit etc; or I might totally reprint it using a mask. I use different papers, different developers with potentially different times, often multiple toners. Each image is a new problem.

 

[Kilgallb]

No, and now that I use Dektol and time for 2 minutes I do not develop by guessing while the print is developing. I look at the result after fixing and turn on the light, if necessary.

I use the same method. I use RC paper exclusively so two minutes or three minutes makes no difference to the blacks and minuscule difference to peak whites.

 

[john_s]

I remember the Fred Picker reference print... I bought one ... waited in anguish until it could arrive so I would have the reference I needed to improve my work... Turned out it was one of the worst prints I have ever seen.... so the answer is No..

Unless you are doing edition prints and need a wet reference to match too.

Long before the internet, information was got from books and advertisements in magazines, and I bought a couple of Fred Picker's Reference Prints which were mailed to me here at the end of the Earth. I was very disappointed in them. I think FP was more hype than substance. Some of his products were good, some disappointing. However, I am forever in his gratitude for leading me to test film exposure and development. It transformed my negatives: prior to that I followed manufacturers' recommendations and had contrasty negs that were hard to print.

 

[cowanw]

I use the Color Wheel Company Gray Scale and Value Finder; compares Values 1-10 with keyholes to help with moving tones up or down on the print.

 

[wyofilm]

For b/w I think a reference print would be useful only if it came with a reference negative.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

A "reference print" without attached negative it was made from? What is it referencing to?

As one said, looking at a number of quality prints in general can get one ahead, and by quality I mean one that speaks to me with confidence I appreciate.

Technical pefection may well be what some aspire to, but often it does not transcend intended impact. And what is technical perfection to start with?

 

[DREW WILEY]

You want to play flamenco guitar, and someone sends you an ideal Johnny Cash recording with a bunch of bass fiddle thumping. What's the point?

 

[eli griggs]

For b/w I think a reference print would be useful only if it came with a reference negative.

Or, you can just use a B&W piece of photo paper as previously mentioned and a good grey card or a spot on photograph of a good gray card, together, making a fresh 'set' for each paper and developer combination you use.

You can even do as some of us do, and on occasion, include a good grey card in a frame or two, metered in the various lighting situations, during several different set-ups, and meter this grey card in the darkroom to get an idea of what your exposure one other scenes in that lighting is going to be.

It might help to also make a few extra sets, of black/white/grey cards to tone with the toners you like to use or want to try, after establishing basic zones, so you can mark the range of effects for easy reference.

A print can be perfect in every technical and still fail, so I am of the opinion the white, black and grey cards (and toned cards) would be more useful to a technical printer, which I am no, but a good reference print that gives the photographer/darkroom printer a gold standard to shoot for, that pleases him/herself, is much more useful for most of us. (Actually I suppose both a high key and low key reference print should also be made to go along with the first).

Anyway, I see a lot of good photographers out there and too many do no know what a good print should look like, IMO.

One Photographer I knew in an Artist League, did very good compositions of her world travels, but could no make any wet print but muddied, greys, with no true blacks or whites, or even bad imitations of good blacks or whites.

It drove me crazy, knowing what her work could look like, but, I never said anything to her, I considered her a friend, who would one day, take another look at her own work, but she never did while I knew her, fearing a critique would only end the friendly relationship, as she was extremely shy and trying hard to be less agoraphobic than when I first met her.

I see similar work from many other photographers and I know they could make better photographic prints, if they had a clue, in the form of a master reference print and the Element of Quality, that makes it so.

IMO.