Documentation for lici colorstar analyzer

[tjeulink]

Hi everyone, im new here

I'm looking for the documentation of an lici colorstar analyzer i found for 30 euro's. Here's a picture, i can't find specific model numbers or anything sadly

If anyone can point me in the right direction than that would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Mick Fagan]

Congratulations, you have purchased possibly the best colour analyser ever made for both colour and B&W darkroom work.

I have that exact model, I also have a small brochure and I have the manual, which is a copy of a copy of a....

I used mine extensively for colour negative enlarging and found it to be nothing short of brilliant. The accuracy of the unit as a whole, is unbelievable and the fact that it analyses all three colours at the same time, was revolutionary, to say the least.

For B&W work I use it a lot, especially when one changes the enlarger head height.

I will see if I can get a PDF of the two items for you. Could take a day as today is wonderful spring like weather and we will be going out this afternoon.

 

[AgX]

Here is another source:

(It would be great if one of you uploads that manual at least.)

I have the first Lici Colorstar model. If it is any help I could send you a photocopy of the manual.

Let me know

Hans

 

[tjeulink]

Here is another source:

(It would be great if one of you uploads that manual at least.)

Thats a funny coincidence, i bought this unit from someone recently widowed, her husband was called Hans aswell. i'll message them! thanks! and i'll defenitely dumb the manual somewhere where everyone can easily access it. hopefully that website continues to exist then haha

edit: oof it seems i can't send private messages due to a spamfilter and my account being too new, is there a way to tag Hans so he sees my request?

Congratulations, you have purchased possibly the best colour analyser ever made for both colour and B&W darkroom work.

I have that exact model, I also have a small brochure and I have the manual, which is a copy of a copy of a....

I used mine extensively for colour negative enlarging and found it to be nothing short of brilliant. The accuracy of the unit as a whole, is unbelievable and the fact that it analyses all three colours at the same time, was revolutionary, to say the least.

For B&W work I use it a lot, especially when one changes the enlarger head height.

I will see if I can get a PDF of the two items for you. Could take a day as today is wonderful spring like weather and we will be going out this afternoon.

Haha thank you Mick! I just think the design of the device itself already is really cool! looks like it comes straight out of some sci-fi movie! I noticed the model on ebay going for 275 euros, which was way to steep for me since I already owned a (way worse) timer and colour analyser (philips PDT 024 & PCA 060).

The next day I pick up some ilford multigrade filters and the lady tells me her husband recently died and she has to sell his gear for money, and to check out some of her other adverts. Back home I noticed she sold the lici colorstar for 35 euros, which was way too little so I explained to her it was worth more and i'd gladly help her sort through some of the stuff to make sets of them (since she doesn't know the names of stuff and what belongs together). She was very thankfull and appreciated the honesty so she gave it to me for 50 euro's after i helped her sort some old gear. Her husband was a bit famous appearantly.

It would be great if you could upload the manual you have! i'm currently guessing, i do have some reference sheet for settings with certain papertypes i believe but i have no clue what the settings mean for my paper!

Hope you enjoyed the beautifull weather! Its nice over here in The Netherlands as well!

 

[MattKing]

Nige,
I have the first Lici Colorstar model. If it is any help I could send you a photocopy of the manual.

Let me know

Hans

edit: oof it seems i can't send private messages due to a spamfilter and my account being too new, is there a way to tag Hans so he sees my request?

Tjeulink just needs to make a post asking if clogz can start a private Conversation with him/her for the purpose of exchanging emails - precede his/her user name by @ - like this: @clogz .
I may have already done that for you .

 

[tjeulink]

Tjeulink just needs to make a post asking if clogz can start a private Conversation with him/her for the purpose of exchanging emails - precede his/her user name by @ - like this: @clogz .
I may have already done that for you .

Thank you!

 

[koraks]

Nice, I used to have one of those. And a newer one as well.

Congratulations, you have purchased possibly the best colour analyser ever made for both colour and B&W darkroom work.

With the exception of the later models; they were even better, but conceptually the same.

I got rid of both of them because it turned out they (1) didn't speed up my B&W or color printing and (2) don't play nice with PWM light sources. Sold off both, one went to China, the other went to wherever. I had a manual for both, I think, but I got rid of those too. Doesn't matter because even without a manual these are pretty straightforward to use. For B&W you use the 'chrome' setting on the probe, that's about the only thing you can't really figure out without having the manual. All the rest is pretty self-explanatory.

 

[Mick Fagan]

Nice, I used to have one of those. And a newer one as well.



With the exception of the later models; they were even better, but conceptually the same.

I will have to sort of disagree that the later versions were better. Sensitivity, as I understand it, suffered with the later units. Well the sensitivity may have been the same, but with the reduced number of stars in the central star of lights which was reduced drastically, it is slightly harder to use.

I have used three versions of the Color Star and lastly the not so brilliant version that came out under the Jobo name; which was the worst of the lot.

The original unit is as sensitive as anything and super easy to use in a number of ways that makes life easier for each individual in the darkroom.

I have the original version and though I had the offer for a super cheap later version, I declined.

Mick.

 

[Mick Fagan]

I now have a PDF of my manual, I don't believe I can post it here, if anyone wishes to have a copy, then pm me with your email address and I'll forward a copy of the PDF.

Mick.

 

[MattKing]

@Mick Fagan
You can PM tjeulink, and tjeulink can respond, but tjeulink's low post count means he/she can't as yet start their own Private Conversation.

 

[Mick Fagan]

Yep, thanks Matt, already sent a pm to he/she.

I had already read your earlier post about pm's.

Ps: shouldn't you be in bed, it's almost midnight in Canada.

 

[MattKing]

Ps: shouldn't you be in bed, it's almost midnight in Canada.

Only in the East .
8:56 PM, Pacific Daylight Time here right now

 

[koraks]

Well the sensitivity may have been the same, but with the reduced number of stars in the central star of lights which was reduced drastically, it is slightly harder to use.

The version depicted in this thread was the original as far as I know. The later version I had (a 2000) had in fact many more LEDs. And as you stated this does not have a 1:1 relationship with sensitivity. The benefit of the later version was in for instance the ability to calibrate for several papers and ease of use in adjusting exposure etc. Perhaps there was ultimately a dumbed down version, but I've never worked with it.

 

[AgX]

For the models 2000 and 6000 also no manual is online.

 

[tjeulink]

The version depicted in this thread was the original as far as I know. The later version I had (a 2000) had in fact many more LEDs. And as you stated this does not have a 1:1 relationship with sensitivity. The benefit of the later version was in for instance the ability to calibrate for several papers and ease of use in adjusting exposure etc. Perhaps there was ultimately a dumbed down version, but I've never worked with it.

From what i read the later models could also adjust for reciprocity curves per colour channel, but it was debatable whether that mattered much according to people there. And i'm not sure whether the version i own can do black and white contrast approximation measurements. I personally don't like the look of later models as much, all small buttons and screen navigation. physical sliders and toggles have my preference since they are a bit less abstract. it does have some sort of storing function but i can't figure out yet how it works or how its supposed to work.

I now have a PDF of my manual, I don't believe I can post it here, if anyone wishes to have a copy, then pm me with your email address and I'll forward a copy of the PDF.

Mick.

Thanks Mick! i replied to your PM with my mail!

 

[koraks]

From what i read the later models could also adjust for reciprocity curves per colour channel

Not that I know of, but perhaps the latest and greatest model, which as I understand was basically part of a closed-loop exposure system, was capable of this.

And i'm not sure whether the version i own can do black and white contrast approximation measurements.

Yes, it absolutely can. Just use the spot mode of the probe and measure relevant high- and low-density areas of the baseboard image. The difference in exposure time tells you the contrast range and using the ISO-R definition you can work this back into the contrast grade you could start with. This works quite reliably.

I personally don't like the look of later models as much, all small buttons and screen navigation.

Hm, I don't quite agree. The large rotary dial on the 2000 was very convenient, and the buttons were very easy to locate/use in the dark. And no accidental flipping of that large red switch on the old model.

it does have some sort of storing function but i can't figure out yet how it works or how its supposed to work.

It has two, in a way. There's the 'store' mode on the large flip switch which basically just locks the exposure time that has been measured, and also turns off the focus light. Then there's the calibration that you 'enter' using the M and Y sliders near the color star for color balance and the sensitivity slide on the left for the black point/exposure. The latter is also usable for B&W if you want to determine an exposure starting point using the colorstar. I think the manual suggests calibrating using an integral measurement for middle grey, but I preferred calibrating towards a black point (sort of a zone-I calibration). YMMV; be creative. In any case, you have to set the dials for the paper you use (and of course initially determine it). This is not super accurate, but OK-ish for determining starting settings. You have to maintain your own piece of paper/database of filter settings for the color papers you use. This is in practice not much of an issue because today we essentially only have Fuji papers and they all balance very close to each other. It used to be more annoying when we could still get Kodak papers, which balanced very differently from Fuji, so you had to set the correct settings on those dials for the paper you were about to use.

For the color calibration, LiCi supplied a Shirly negative (probably she was actually called Toos or Truus or something ) of a young woman in a woolen sweater and some color and neutral density patches. I think mine was made on Kodak Gold 100. Being made in probably the 1980s or around 1990 at the very latest, the negative had color shifted quite badly. You're better off shooting a color checker on decent-quality, fresh film, developing it properly and then using that for your calibrations.

 

[pentaxuser]

You're better off shooting a color checker on decent-quality, fresh film, developing it properly and then using that for your calibrations.

Yes, I'd endorse that recommendation. My experience with an old Fuji "Lucky" negative was the same. Fuji even provided a "perfect" print of that negative as well. It was of a young Japanese girl in an ornamental garden

I tired every filtration under the sun but couldn't quite get all the print's colour to match the original print

pentaxuser

 

[Mick Fagan]

The later Color Star colour analysers, used a plug in module with which one could calibrate the colour of a known film/paper combination quite accurately.

I remember one day the rep called into the lab with one of the second version Color Star analysers, to see if we would like to trial it. This we did and as I had my own original model Color Star unit in my own darkroom, I was given it first.

Essentially it emulated the Beseler PM2 analysers and their drop in module units, the Color Star unit was far easier to use. It was also so fast to use compared to the Beseler PM2 units we had, everyone was clamouring to use it. Unfortunately we weren't able to get even one, as every normal darkroom was already equipped with Beseler analysers. The number crunchers just said nope, you already have analysers.

We thought it was a missed opportunity, little did we know they had been looking into video colour systems. That certainly changed the situation, but the cost was horrendous, more expensive than a small automobile.

 

[Mick Fagan]

tjeulink, just for your information, you do not need to run your enlarger with this analyser, you can, but you don't have to.

I myself don't have my enlarger controlled by the Color Star analyser, I use the analyser as a stand alone unit.

When you do use it, you will need the darkroom lights completely off, not even safelights on. The sensitivity (readings) of the analyser will be incorrect if there is any kind of room light. You will often have light escaping from the negative stage of your enlarger, providing it isn't excessive, this will not be a problem.

My darkroom walls are painted white, even with some light escaping from the negative stage of my enlarger and being reflected in the darkroom, this has never been an issue.

I would also suggest that if you wish to do a size change of a print, either up or down, then the most accurate way is this:

First, find your perfect print exposure time, as well as the aperture on the enlarging lens. With all lights out, half pull the negative stage out and place your sensor directly underneath, switch the enlarger on. Set the sliding scale on the left of the analyser so that the readout in seconds matches your exposure time in seconds.

Replace the negative stage, switch some lights on then move your enlarger head up or down and focus the enlarger for a sharp print just by eye. Switch the lights off, half pull the negative stage out, place the sensor directly underneath and switch the enlarger on. The analyser will then display your new enlarging time down to one tenth of a second.

At this stage, critically re-focus your negative, then give it a go.

Within reason, this is super accurate. Once you have done it a few times you will be better equipped for fast size changes in the darkroom.

There is one caveat though. If you go from a smallish print size, say 100x150mm to 400x600mm you may need to add slightly more time due to the vagaries of light loss. Your new time will be very, very close, but not 100% close. I have found an increase of 1/10th of a stop more light is often needed if going up in scale by around that amount of difference. Not always, but quite often.

You may also wish to change the contrast by something like ¼ of a grade, or even by as little as 1/8th of a contrast grade change. Changing contrast grades in these small amounts can only be done by use of either a colour head or a dedicated B&W head on your enlarger.

Hope this helps.

 

[tjeulink]

Yes, it absolutely can. Just use the spot mode of the probe and measure relevant high- and low-density areas of the baseboard image. The difference in exposure time tells you the contrast range and using the ISO-R definition you can work this back into the contrast grade you could start with. This works quite reliably.

Ah great! basically the same as my philips PDT 024 then. measure the darkest part with details and lightest part with details. etc.

It has two, in a way. There's the 'store' mode on the large flip switch which basically just locks the exposure time that has been measured, and also turns off the focus light. Then there's the calibration that you 'enter' using the M and Y sliders near the color star for color balance and the sensitivity slide on the left for the black point/exposure. The latter is also usable for B&W if you want to determine an exposure starting point using the colorstar. I think the manual suggests calibrating using an integral measurement for middle grey, but I preferred calibrating towards a black point (sort of a zone-I calibration). YMMV; be creative. In any case, you have to set the dials for the paper you use (and of course initially determine it). This is not super accurate, but OK-ish for determining starting settings. You have to maintain your own piece of paper/database of filter settings for the color papers you use. This is in practice not much of an issue because today we essentially only have Fuji papers and they all balance very close to each other. It used to be more annoying when we could still get Kodak papers, which balanced very differently from Fuji, so you had to set the correct settings on those dials for the paper you were about to use.

i've been printing some basic level prints (just using the integral spot meter and exposing with an contrast of level 2) and the biggest problem im experiencing is that the sensitivity slider doesn't seem to change anything below a sensitivity of around 25, making it hard to get the correct exposure. i find it pretty weird that my negatives/paper seems so low in sensitivity but maybe its because im printing on such a small paper size (10x15cm) with a 100 watt bulb in my durst m605. i'm not yet certain what the best way to solve this is, i suspect just using some ND filters, since exposure times are close to or below the 2 second mark when the lens is stopped down by 1 and the timer is only accurate above 2 seconds according to the manual.

I also am not sure yet whether i should measure exposure timings with contrast filter in place or not, for now i measure without filtering but since contrast filters reduce by a stop i believe that might help bringing the paper sensitivty up from its current 40 to 70.

For the color calibration, LiCi supplied a Shirly negative (probably she was actually called Toos or Truus or something ) of a young woman in a woolen sweater and some color and neutral density patches. I think mine was made on Kodak Gold 100. Being made in probably the 1980s or around 1990 at the very latest, the negative had color shifted quite badly. You're better off shooting a color checker on decent-quality, fresh film, developing it properly and then using that for your calibrations.

good to know! i have both the print and the negative, i'll keep them for the sake of keeping the set complete though!

 

[tjeulink]

tjeulink, just for your information, you do not need to run your enlarger with this analyser, you can, but you don't have to.

I myself don't have my enlarger controlled by the Color Star analyser, I use the analyser as a stand alone unit.

When you do use it, you will need the darkroom lights completely off, not even safelights on. The sensitivity (readings) of the analyser will be incorrect if there is any kind of room light. You will often have light escaping from the negative stage of your enlarger, providing it isn't excessive, this will not be a problem.

My darkroom walls are painted white, even with some light escaping from the negative stage of my enlarger and being reflected in the darkroom, this has never been an issue.

Oh i know! but i prefer it since im very space limited! i have a studio apartment, my bathroom is the only place i can even think of printing safely. the less stuff i need the better. thats why i use a paperdrum aswell. the past week(s) i've been printing and my biggest problem with the colorstar is that it isn't easy to adjust the timing! but i think something is broken with the sensitivity slider, i cleaned it but it still won't change the time when i slide the sensitivity below 25ish. maybe i need to calibrate the machine a bit so the sensitivity isn't so much in the lower scale, but maybe for bigger prints and color prints the current sensitivity calibration is required. my negatives in general seem to have very low printtimes, and i don't want to step the lens down further than f8 ideally. so i guess i need some ND filtering next!

I would also suggest that if you wish to do a size change of a print, either up or down, then the most accurate way is this:

First, find your perfect print exposure time, as well as the aperture on the enlarging lens. With all lights out, half pull the negative stage out and place your sensor directly underneath, switch the enlarger on. Set the sliding scale on the left of the analyser so that the readout in seconds matches your exposure time in seconds.

Replace the negative stage, switch some lights on then move your enlarger head up or down and focus the enlarger for a sharp print just by eye. Switch the lights off, half pull the negative stage out, place the sensor directly underneath and switch the enlarger on. The analyser will then display your new enlarging time down to one tenth of a second.

At this stage, critically re-focus your negative, then give it a go.

Within reason, this is super accurate. Once you have done it a few times you will be better equipped for fast size changes in the darkroom.

There is one caveat though. If you go from a smallish print size, say 100x150mm to 400x600mm you may need to add slightly more time due to the vagaries of light loss. Your new time will be very, very close, but not 100% close. I have found an increase of 1/10th of a stop more light is often needed if going up in scale by around that amount of difference. Not always, but quite often.

i have trouble understanding this. partly because i don't understand what exactly you mean by "negative stage", is that the negative and negative carrier on my durst m605? and what do you mean by "place your sensor directly underneath", as in directly underneath the light unobstructed by the negative stage by setting it on the baseboard of the enlarger underneath? oh i think im starting to understand now. you want to measure unobstructed light at the baseboard at the different heights to see how much the light intensity changes due to the difference in spread. this is very interesting, i think i need to try and walk through it step by step to fully understand this approach though! its too abstract yet for me haha, i only started photography and printing this year!

You may also wish to change the contrast by something like ¼ of a grade, or even by as little as 1/8th of a contrast grade change. Changing contrast grades in these small amounts can only be done by use of either a colour head or a dedicated B&W head on your enlarger.

Hope this helps.

i have a colorhead! but my problem with that is that the exposure time changes when i change the filters and i don't know how to compensate for that! thats why i bought ilford multigrade filters, they all have the same ND factor i think (not sure yet, haven't tested them enough).

 

[koraks]

i've been printing some basic level prints (just using the integral spot meter and exposing with an contrast of level 2) and the biggest problem im experiencing is that the sensitivity slider doesn't seem to change anything below a sensitivity of around 25, making it hard to get the correct exposure. i find it pretty weird that my negatives/paper seems so low in sensitivity but maybe its because im printing on such a small paper size (10x15cm) with a 100 watt bulb in my durst m605. i'm not yet certain what the best way to solve this is, i suspect just using some ND filters, since exposure times are close to or below the 2 second mark when the lens is stopped down by 1 and the timer is only accurate above 2 seconds according to the manual.

There seems to be a contradiction in here somewhere where on the one hand you seem to signal that the sensitivity of your paper would be low and at the same time you're experiencing very short exposures times. However, a few remarks:
* If stopping down only one stop gives too short an exposure, just stop down further. Lens fetishists will start to complain once you get in diffraction issues, but really, using let's say an f/4 enlarging lens at f/11 will work just fine. Especially when printing so small!
* ND filters would probably be more detrimental to image quality (due to flare, additional dust-attractive surfaces etc) than just stopping down a little further...plus, they're inconvenient if you basically don't need them to begin with.
* A color analyzer is in principle made for color paper, and in general color papers are much faster than B&W papers. That your B&W paper will measure 'slow' doesn't surprise me. I can't recall the 'ISO' values I got for my B&W papers. It might have been low, I really don't know.
* It's not so much the timer that is inaccurate, but you're dealing with lamp warmup- and cool-down times that become significant at some point. 2 seconds is pretty conservative, though. I think we're talking about errors in the range of 50ms or so.
* It probably doesn't matter much (or at all) if you measure contrast with or without color filters applied, but for sake of common sense I'd say that without filters is the best idea. I can't remember if I did it with or without; as I said before, I found the whole color analyzer business more of a distraction than an advantage.