Do you stabilize or tone print?

[pkr1979]

Hi all,

As my misunderstanding on wetting agents and stabilizers have been cleared up (thanks everyone!), Ive now become curious on how many of you use stabiliser or toning as a regular step when making black and white prints? Why or why not?

Cheers
Peter

 

[BHuij]

I generally use a weak solution of selenium toner (1:19 in water) when making silver gelatin fiber prints. After fixing, I give it a brief rinse in running water and then tone for 5-10 minutes. From there, a bath in hypo clearing agent and a final wash. The tone shift on the paper I use (Ilford MG FB Classic) is basically imperceptible compared to un-toned prints, but I tell myself it improves the longevity of the print. Whether it does or not, I guess my great grandchildren will find out.

 

[Paul Howell]

As a rule I do not like a heavily toned print, like FHuij I do use selenium as a stabilizer for fiber base prints.

 

[Alan9940]

I follow the same procedure as BHuij for all my keeper fiber prints.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

KRST to get a deeper black with very little tone change - I have an untoned print next to the toning tray to judge when to pull the print.

2 fixer baths, HCA, wash, tone, HCA, wash - a bit excessive, maybe, but I hate to put a print in the toner and have it stain because there is some residual silver somewhere in the print. Often the residual silver is in the fixer - so going from fixer to toner is a bit iffy in my book.

 

[ic-racer]

I used to tone with selenium back in the 1980s but the Ilford MG FB glossy I use now does not tone much at all with selenium. So I stopped using toner. I still have a few bottles of selenium. Wonder if it is any good.

 

[BHuij]

I used to tone with selenium back in the 1980s but the Ilford MG FB glossy I use now does not tone much at all with selenium. So I stopped using toner. I still have a few bottles of selenium. Wonder if it is any good.

The KRST I'm using was purchased by my dad in the late 1980s, sat in his darkroom for the last ~40 years and appears to be just as effective as "fresh" stuff. I did have to filter out some precipitate in the concentrate before I mixed up my 1:19 dilution.

 

[koraks]

Toning only for aesthetic purposes. I'm skeptical about the supposed longevity improvements of partial selenium toning, but to each their own. I like the hue shift it induces. Same with various other toners.
No stabilizers etc, not even for color prints. If it fades, it fades!

 

[brian steinberger]

I normally tone FB and RC prints in Kodak selenium 1:19 similar to those above. I do not use stabilizer as I’ve read horror stories about it. Plus I like the tonal shift and darker blacks. For true stabilization one needs to either tone to completion in selenium, or tone to completion in either sepia or brown toner.

 

[xkaes]

Toning and stabilizing are not mutually exclusive, but they are not the same thing either.

You can tone without any stabilization, and vice versa -- as some toners provide some stabilization before any noticeable toning occurs.

I usually stabilize my prints with SISTAN -- regardless of whether or not I tone them.

 

[MattKing]

I tone for colour, not permanence.
Most of my papers don't respond very much to selenium toning, so I only use that when I:
1) use Ilford RC Cooltone, which does respond; or
2) when I'm doing a sepia/selenium split tone - the partial sepia bleach tends to increase the paper's selenium response.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

When I was regularly making gel silver prints, I toned for colour. With toning, comes permanence. A bath after toning and final wash, in Sistan, extends permanence. I remember this from tests that Ctein did years ago. I think that was mainly with RC papers.

 

[snusmumriken]

I use Ilford Multigrade Classic FB, and I tone lightly for 2-3 min in selenium toner. To my eyes the Ilford paper has a distinctly greenish cast if un-toned, and this light intervention neutralises it. It also visibly deepens the blacks. I do this to all my prints because I like a consistent appearance, but I know other people like to ring the changes for individual photos.

I accepted the book-learning that even light toning improved longevity, but if you search here on Photrio you’ll find previous threads that cast doubt on its real value in that respect.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I generally use a weak solution of selenium toner (1:19 in water) when making silver gelatin fiber prints. After fixing, I give it a brief rinse in running water and then tone for 5-10 minutes. From there, a bath in hypo clearing agent and a final wash. The tone shift on the paper I use (Ilford MG FB Classic) is basically imperceptible compared to un-toned prints, but I tell myself it improves the longevity of the print. Whether it does or not, I guess my great grandchildren will find out.

Tone for a tone change or a change in print density. Selenium toner often gratifyingly increases Dmax. Don't tone partially in selenium toner for permanence. Unless you tone to completion, which most don't because the change in color is just too much, you're not getting much protection. Sulfide/sepia toning, on the other hand, protects a print well. Again proportionally to the amount of toning, but sepia toning is usually done for a marked change in image tone.

I don't really understand the logic of dunking a print in weak selenium toner and toning it for so little time that the "change" is imperceptible. The notion that your prints are being protected when nothing happens to it visually is a myth.

Stabilizer is great, but if you want prints that are going to last for generations, follow good processing guidelines; don't underfix, don't overuse the fixer, use a wash aid and wash well, whether you use stabilizer or not. That's all you really need.

Doremus

 

[Kino]

When I was regularly making gel silver prints, I toned for colour. With toning, comes permanence. A bath after toning and final wash, in Sistan, extends permanence. I remember this from tests that Ctein did years ago. I think that was mainly with RC papers.

https://ctein.com/PostExposure2ndIllustrated.pdf

The 2nd Edition of "Post Exposure" by Ctein is freely available for download at the link above.

Chapter 12, "The Issue of Permanence" is probably what you are referencing, as it deals with RC papers. This book was published in 2011, and many of the products he mentions are no longer available, but I doubt if any substantial changes have been made to RC formulations since then, so it probably still pertains to "modern" papers.

It would be interesting if he would do a follow-up with currently available materials, but I think he as largely abandoned photochemical for digital printing, now that dye transfer has become impossible to continue.

In any regard, it's well worth a read...

 

[BHuij]

I use Ilford Multigrade Classic FB, and I tone lightly for 2-3 min in selenium toner. To my eyes the Ilford paper has a distinctly greenish cast if un-toned, and this light intervention neutralises it. It also visibly deepens the blacks. I do this to all my prints because I like a consistent appearance, but I know other people like to ring the changes for individual photos.

I accepted the book-learning that even light toning improved longevity, but if you search here on Photrio you’ll find previous threads that cast doubt on its real value in that respect.

I used to get a greenish cast on my Multigrade Classic FB paper when I was using Dektol. The weak selenium toning I do counteracted it for the most part. When I switched to Ilford MG developer I stopped getting the greenish cast. Now I'm using a homebrew developer that's really cheap to make (E72) and I have not noticed a green cast. Haven't looked that hard though, and I've always done my toning, so it's possible I'm just toning out any green cast the E72 causes. I believe The Naked Photographer channel on YouTube has also mentioned that Dektol can give a greenish cast on Ilford MG FB.

 

[warden]

I used to tone with selenium but don't tone any more for permanence. I'm not worried about image permanence and didn't like the color it made on the prints anyway.

I do like toning with sepia sulfide on occasion, which makes a nice pairing if you're using a vintage camera imo. It's fun.

 

[eli griggs]

I use Selenium for toning FB prints in general practice.

 

[xkaes]

With toning, comes permanence.

Depends on the toner. Some toners just add color and have nothing to do with extending the life of the print.

 

[snusmumriken]

I used to get a greenish cast on my Multigrade Classic FB paper when I was using Dektol. The weak selenium toning I do counteracted it for the most part. When I switched to Ilford MG developer I stopped getting the greenish cast.

FWIW, I already use Ilford MG developer and the un-toned print still looks greenish to me.

 

[pkr1979]

Thanks everyone Leaving out the toners - hows the feeling for Stabinal or Adostab (or any similar product) for FB paper then?