Do you add developing time when you reuse the chemicals?

[ala]

Hi!

I am a Jobo ATL 1000 user. Recently i tried to reuse my chemicals and the result was great. I pushed one stop in case the chemicals became weaker after i used them.

Did i have to do that or it is ok to reuse the chemicals 2-3 times with no pushing?

Looking forward to hear your opinion!

 

[Dr Croubie]

Depends, what films and what chemicals (I'll presume you're talking about colour)?
Also, how many of what films are you doing at once?
I did my first 4 sheets of 4x5" Velvia in a 1L Tetenal E6 3-bath kit a few weeks ago, in my Jobo CPE2+Lift with 2509n. I measured the raw chems precisely and diluted accordingly to 350ml, and gave it 7:30 in the FD, they came out perfect.
The next weekend, I re-used the same chemicals for another 6x sheets of 4x5" Velvia, and gave it 8 minutes, again, perfect.
I've kept those chemicals, but won't reuse them again for anything important. I've got another 6 sheets of RVP to do, but I'll measure out a fresh 350ml and try to reuse them within a week or two of mixing them. (oh damn, I'll have to go out and take more photos )

When I've done this mix/reuse once more for the last 300ml of the kit, I'll mix all 3 lots of used chems together and play around with some old expired crapfilm (ektachrome from 1982 anyone?) and/or cross-processing...

Tetenal themselves recommend 12 rolls / sheets of 8x10 (48 sheets of 4x5) per 1L kit, "if you process 2 rolls at once" (ie 8 sheets of 4x5). Nothing wrong with doing less at once, or putting more films through, depends how picky you are about the results (FWIW, I can't see the difference in my first and second batches, YMMV)

I've also got some expired NPS and fresh Portra160 4x5s waiting to be processed with some Powder (forgot which brand) that's waiting to be mixed, but for that I'll just mix the whole 1L and keep pouring it back into the stock once I'm done. I'll be watching this thread to see others' reccomendations on extra times for that, I've never done C41 before.

 

[ala]

Hi! thanks a lot for your reply!

Depends, what films and what chemicals (I'll presume you're talking about colour)?

What an idiot of me.. forgot to say that my question is about C-41 chemicals. I use Digitise. The films that i processed recently are Portra 400 and Agfa Ultra 100.

Also, how many of what films are you doing at once?

First time i processed 2 rolls with 270ml of each solution. The second time again 2 rolls and as the machine drains about 220-240ml of each solution, i added the rest mixing new chemicals.

How did you know how much time you had to add the second time? I've read somewhere that people add 10% of developing time each time. Thats why i pushed it one stop (3:45 instead of 3:15). But this math with 10% each time made me confused. Maybe i misread that? What if i want to reuse the chemicals the third time? Pushing +3 stops? Sounds weird....

What should i do now: Push 2 stops or try the same 3:45 min )+1 stop)?

The Digitise manual says that the capacity of 270ml solution is 3-6 rolls. That's why i assume, that i still can use my solution one more time.

 

[Xmas]

Hi! thanks a lot for your reply!



What an idiot of me.. forgot to say that my question is about C-41 chemicals. I use Digitise. The films that i processed recently are Portra 400 and Agfa Ultra 100.



First time i processed 2 rolls with 270ml of each solution. The second time again 2 rolls and as the machine drains about 220-240ml of each solution, i added the rest mixing new chemicals.

How did you know how much time you had to add the second time? I've read somewhere that people add 10% of developing time each time. Thats why i pushed it one stop (3:45 instead of 3:15). But this math with 10% each time made me confused. Maybe i misread that? What if i want to reuse the chemicals the third time? Pushing +3 stops? Sounds weird....

What should i do now: Push 2 stops or try the same 3:45 min )+1 stop)?

The Digitise manual says that the capacity of 270ml solution is 3-6 rolls. That's why i assume, that i still can use my solution one more time.

The manual will also say what time to use for 2nd 3rd film and how long the used developer lasts...

Processing longer for partially used developer is not pushing.

Read the manual more carefully.

 

[ala]

Hi Xmas!

Thanks for the reply.

Sorry, what manual do you mean?

Best regards.

 

[RedSun]

Most C-41 is a replenishing system. You pour out some old and add the fresh replenisher. So you can keep the chemicals pretty much forever.

Most people use the developer as on-shot, or run it twice until the manufacturer's capacity is reached. You can possibly use it more than that and add some time, but it is not recommended.

Developer is cheap.

 

[Xmas]

You normally buy C41 chemicals as a kit with an instruction manual for mixing and use.

Some are abstract.

 

[ala]

Hi!

Thanks for the information. What you say about using bleacher and fixer adding some new solution every time is interesting... If i use 270ml, the machine pours out about 240. So additional 30ml of a new solution is enough to keep it alive? Don't bleacher and fixer "loose their power" like that?

Then i am a little confused with the capacity thing. This is a manual for my chemicals http://www.macodirect.de/download/C41_InstructionManual.pdf
Let's say, i use 270ml of a Bleacher. It says "capacity - 5-8 films". I thought that after i process 8 films with this solution, it can't be used anymore. Do i understand correctly now, that 5-8 films mean "during one process you can load up to 8 films, but you can reuse it forever"?

Thanks in advance!

 

[RedSun]

Well, you'll have to read the instruction of your chemicals.

Only replenish system can be replenished. The replenishers (developer, fixer and bleach) are in general stronger than the working solutions. If the replenishing rate is 20 ml/roll, then that is how much you'll need to replace. Say, you use 300ml to process one roll of 135/36. After you save the used chemical (not contaminated), you pour 20ml new replenisher to the container, then top off with the used chemical to make it to 300ml. Pour out the remaining used chemical.

In theory, you can keep replenishing the chemicals and do not pour away them. But this system only works well if you use the chemicals on a regular basis, say, weekly, but not monthly. All C-41 solutions can be replenished.

But some chemical systems are not replenishing system. They are in general called one-shot, even though you can use it twice or 3 times.

Say, I use the regular T-max developer for B&W developing. It is a non-replenishing system. I believe for 1 liter working solution, you can process up to 4 rolls of 135/36. The next 4 rolls, you add 30 seconds to the developing time. Then add 1 minute to the next 4 rolls. I think the total capacity is either 12 or 16 rolls... Then it is time to throw it away. But most of the people probably just use it once. So if the tank capacity is 250ml, then the capacity is 4 rolls per liter.

 

[ala]

Hi RedSun!

Thanks a lot for all the information. After i saw your post i reread the manual for Rollei Digibase c-41 and started looking on different forums if it is a replenish system.

It is said in the manual, that the used chemicals should be stored properly before the next use. It makes me think that these chemicals are made to be reused. But there is no information about any replenishing rate or additional time for the development for the used chemicals.

I am going to write to macodirect.de support asking about that.

Meanwhile if anyone has any ideas, please share. Thanks in advance!

 

[RedSun]

I just got chance to read the PDF. This is one of the popular C-41 home kits. It is made for a non-replenishing system. It says capacity for 250ml developer is 3-5 rolls of film. So you just save the used chemicals and re-use the next time.

For C-41, it is very hard to say how much longer you'll have to add when you use the same chemicals the 3rd time or more. Most people would not bother with it and use the chemical once or twice, no more than 3 times. Then you can pretty much keep the same developing time.

The above is for developer, since it is cheap and the most critical chemical. You just do not want to mess up with developer. Fixer is also cheap, so you can dump it after a couple of times.

Bleach is the most expensive one and also the longest-lasting one. Many people use it for a long time, like 10 times or longer if you oxidize it or shake it. I do not really what the limit is.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Breaking news: Follow the instructions provided by the manufacturer aka RTFM.

 

[Truzi]

As Sirius said, follow what the manual says.

There is a rather lengthy and at times confusing thread regarding the Rollei Digibase kit here on Apug:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

It's best to follow the manual, but the above linked thread should cover most questions you may have.

 

[ala]

Thanks a lot, but if you read the instructions, you will see that there is no information about reuse of the chemicals.

Unfortunately the manual is very poor in information

 

[ala]

Thanks a lot, i've spent a few hours on that thread... Looks like i made a good choice wight the chemicals, i just need to figure out all this replenishing process.

As i mentioned earlier, i contacted the Digibase manufacturer. Here is the conversation:

The producer:
"You can normaly calculate 30 - 35ml replenishing rate in C41 chemistry.

When you youse the single concentrate Digibase Kit (not the pre diluted version) please not use the starter for your first working solution.
The sense of the starter is to make the chemistry old.
So the fresh solution for a tank can be used 4 - 8 weeks and when you develope some films you give a new solution with starter to the "first now old" solution"

I asked a few questions. It seemed to me that saying "30-35ml" is not accurate. It was only a part of the proportion. Also it was the first time i saw the information about the starter. So here are his answers:

The producer:
"for EXAMPLE you have the biggest KIT RDC17 (you can also buy single Chemistry one litre bottles if you have higher demand).
And you have very small tanks - like (also just example) 1 Litre
Then you mix your solution for one litre without starter and put it in your tanks.
In the replenisher tankes you put also the working solution with starter - and when you mix one or two month later chemistry also with starter.
The replenishing of 30ml is for every developed film.

Thats the very easy calculation of the Kit when you have maybe the RDC15 Kit for one litre working solution the capacity is normaly 28 Films (with longer developing times you could also have more).
But we have the "official capacity" of 20 Films that it's sure the results are everytime ok.
And of course you can use longer developing times - we have them on the pre deluted Kit with 500ml working solution to have the capacity of 14 Films".

According to that guy i can reuse my chemicals for ages replenishing every time adding 30ml for every processed roll (for about 100 films). Seems awesome! I asked him again about the starter thing, because it seems still bizarre that it was never mentioned in any manual. Will post here later when he replies.

Yesterday i processed a roll with the solution i earlier used to process 4 rolls. And the results are pretty disappointing.


Some of you guys had an opinion that those chemicals are one-shot thing. Now i am really confused if my green cast is caused by the fact that i didn't have to reuse the developer the third time.

I need to mention that when i was pouring the chemicals into the machine, some of the bleacher spilled onto the cap of the developer's bottle. Of course i hope that it didn't get into the bottle itself, but what if it did and caused the green cast? Is it possible?

 

[Dr Croubie]

Meanwhile, I got around to looking at the C41 chemicals that I've got (as soon as I buy some more bottles I'll mix it on the weekend and try it out). It's a Unicolour powder kit, and I didn't see anywhere on there as to being one-shot or replenishment (although I may have missed it).
Seeing as I don't really do C41 that much anyway, I'm just going to mix the full 1L, tip the whole lot back in the bottle when it's done, and reuse it until I don't like the results anymore...

 

[RedSun]

You made it too complicated. Read other notes about C-41.

If you mixed 1 liter solution, then the 5th roll of film should be just fine. You may have problem if you only mixed 250ml solution.

It is hard to tell what is wrong. It can be from contamination. How was the first 4 rolls of film?

There are so many variations of the C-41 chemicals. Even Kodak makes like 5 or more of the C-41 for different purposes. Some are non-replenishing and most are.

If the solution uses "starter", then it is safe to say that this is a replenishing system. But if you only bought one 1 liter kit, then replenishing does not make any sense.

Then it also depends on the way you use your solutions. If you only use it once a month, then replenishing may not make sense.

As I said before, developer is the most important. It goes bad easily, but it is cheap. Bleacher lasts a long time and can be re-used many times.

If you just want to experiment with the used chemicals, use only section of the test film. Do not use entire roll of film.....

 

[mklw1954]

I use the Unicolor 1-liter powder kit and 15 rolls come out great without any time compensation. I save up 15 rolls and develop two 120 rolls at a time and three 35mm rolls at a time, so I go through 5-6 developing cycles and I complete these within 1 week.

Once I tried a 16th roll 3 weeks after developing the first 15 rolls, without time compensation, and it come out thin.

I store the chemicals in 1-liter PET plastic plain seltzer water bottles, squeezing them before capping to eliminate air and store them in the dark (PET is a good oxygen barrier). I also filter each chemical with a coffee filter before each use.

I got drying marks on the 35mm film but this was eliminated by adding 1/2 teaspoon of PotoFlo concentrate to the 1-liter of stabilizer, and adding another 1/2 teaspoon after developing 10 rolls.

I pre-heat the empty tank/reels/film to the developing temperature in a 6-pack cooler, using a pot of hot water to add more hot water until the temperature of the cooler water stabilizes (stays constant) at the developing temperature.

Great results, with good negative density and true colors. 15 rolls using the $19 1-liter kit at Freestyle is economical; I don't see the point of trying to save a few cents by extending use and risking poor results, especially given all the other costs and effort you put into it. I develop color prints from these negatives, using Kodak Ektacolor RA4 chemicals, and they come out great as well.

I also used the Digibase kits when they had separate bleach and fix and they worked well also; after only Digibase blix kits were available, I went back to Unicolor and have not noticed any difference in results.

 

[mts]

I mix my chemistry from scratch using alternative C41 formulae. I mix one litre at a time and reuse the developer for two-three weeks processing perhaps a dozen 24 exposure rolls, and add a bit of time--say 15 sec. a couple of times after the first few rolls. I generally pitch the developer when times get to 3-3/4 minutes or it reaches 3 weeks of age. I process with developer pH 10.2.

I am processing in Nikkor tanks and reels usually two rolls at a time with 500 ml of chemistry. I use a water bath to temper the chemistry bottles and have had no problems with any C41 products.

Bleach lasts a long time if you are using the Fe-EDTA formula. I processed some films this evening using the bleach that was mixed Feb. 2011. It has done a lot of rolls! Regenerate the bleach by shaking the bottle vigorously to aerate it after you complete the processing cycle. The most important thing to extend the bleach life is to use a bisulfite containing stop bath after developing. I also use a wash before the bleach and another good wash after to preserve the fixer lifetime.

Keep in mind that if bleach fails you will have retained silver. In that case you can simply repeat the bleach and fix with fresh chemistry. Both these processes go to completion. So for bleach and fixer you can process by inspection for at least twice the time that activity is first seen. Usually, for fixer this is less than a minute so I always give 5 minutes or so to fix. For bleach, processing 7 minutes seems to be doing the job, until it's not.

For me, C41 is generally as easy or easier to process than B&W, if for no other reason than the developing times are usually short. Not so for E-6 which is a p.i.t.a. to process because it requires reversal and temperature control for two developing steps and storage of a more bottles.