Do photographers have not only a right but also an ethical obligation to defy police?

David Lyga · Jan 15, 2015

BrianShaw said:
But that wasn't my question. My question is... are you actually taking pictures or just talking about it? I value academic discussion, but wondering if that is all this (and the related threads) really is.

No, not too much with police action. Honestly, I am touchy about being confronted by them, despite not being overly afraid in Philadelphia. Discussion, however, does provide both mental and, sometimes, objective solace and, again, sometimes, actual resolution. Honestly, this topic does need to be discussed and I am not inferring that most police act in this way. But I am inferring that most police do not wish to confront other police, as that is a fact of life.

Maybe some of you will remember a couple of years ago when I posted my experience trying to enter the VA Hospital in Philadelphia because that is where we arranged to meet for me to buy a camera from a Veteran. I was not allowed into the facility because the guard said I had no legitimate purpose (meanwhilte people, relatives, family, friends, entered without any hassle).

I told the guard why I was there and as soon as I mentioned camera he grew very suspicious and said that if I dared to take a picture of the facility (its web site has a picture showing everything) guys from bungie cords would come down from the roof and deal with me. This incident was truly surreal and demonstrates how honest concern for safety sometimes evolves into mental chaos within some individuals. I called the Veteran on my mobile and we met off the grounds because I did not want to deal with the 'bungie cords'. Amazing, but true. - David Lyga

lxdude · Jan 15, 2015

BrianShaw said:
Rodney King wasn't an innocent bystander getting beat up for no reason at all. His behavior at the time of the incident and throughout his subsequent lifetime proved him to not be a saint. There was a lot of shared responsibility on his side.

I agree. However, it illustrates my point about the difference recording the scene makes. The video of King, regardless of his vices or whether the police had justification or not, served to illustrate what many people had been complaining about for a long time. So it was effective, which was my point in response to what Ben said.

Irony is, the video of the savage beating of Reginald Denny during the riots that followed the cops' acquittal was not sufficient to obtain a conviction of his attackers. Juries will still do what they want. So while effective, pictures and video are not a guarantee of eventual justice.

BrianShaw · Jan 15, 2015

Not that it matters, Blansky, but I believe they used flashlights. My memory may be vague on that. I know that LAPD was issued smaller and lighter flashights soon after that event. No more 4-cell or 6-cell maglites for LAPD. I don't recall that they ever denied hitting him; I seem to recall that they believed that they were justified in hitting him.

EDIT: Blansky correct, they used batons. It was other folks that got clobbered by flashlights.

BrianShaw · Jan 15, 2015

lxdude said:
... Juries will still do what they want. ...

Moreso for grand juries than for real juries.

lxdude · Jan 15, 2015

blansky said:
I believe a couple of the cops were retried in Federal Court and convicted.

That is correct.

David Lyga · Jan 15, 2015

BrianShaw said:
Rodney King wasn't an innocent bystander getting beat up for no reason at all. His behavior at the time of the incident and throughout his subsequent lifetime proved him to not be a saint. There was a lot of shared responsibility on his side.

And, also, perhaps, the behavior of wanna be hero George Zimmerman is not a manifestation of a lifelong love of peacefulness. Latest news, he beat his girlfriend. - David Lyga

BrianShaw · Jan 15, 2015

Ya... all that guy needed was a cape and a Leica to be a real hero.

TheFlyingCamera · Jan 15, 2015

George Zimmerman is a felony battery conviction waiting to happen.

Old-N-Feeble · Jan 15, 2015

I'm as white a polar bear as you're ever likely to meet and I've been treated like crap and threatened by both white and hispanic police officers for no reason at all. I was polite and cooperative with them all so maybe that's why I was never physically beaten or arrested. They were definitely verbally abusive though. I'll never understand why their perceived power goes to some peoples heads like that. I sure wish I'd had a dash cam during those stops. I could really embarrassed those cops and their chiefs.

DREW WILEY · Jan 15, 2015

Some of these local politicians are cowards who bend to mob rule. It's that simple. What good is government if it allows anarchy and property destruction? I can't speak for other parts of the country, but around here it has ZERO to do with race, and damn little to do with any "protest" dialogue either. Just look at the demographic mix of these mobs. Everyone who actually lives around here knows the facts. There is an organized core of white motheaten old People's Republic of Bersekely revolutionaries having a midlife crisis, and hoping to rejuvenate the "revolution" via confrontation tactics, along with a few wild-eyed spoiled brat twenty-somethings looking for a "cause". The rest are mostly just opportunistic looters and thugs. Most of the more conscientious politically-minded people dropped out a long time ago. These are orchestrated riots, not protests, and they'll find any conceivable excuse to incite a confrontation. Most local residents would like to see the police force doubled. I sure would, but I don't live there, and just work nearby. As it is, some neighboorhoods are hiring private security patrols. Call 911 and you get put on hold. There is nothing "free" about a society that has to be constantly looking over its
shoulder. Nobody likes a macho cop. But they're outright under seige; and how the heck do you think you'd react is someone was trying to
kill or maim you? Where were you guys when four of them got gunned down at the same time by a massively armed drug dealer in that same neighborhood, trying to protect an innocent person? Where are you when pimps are openly trafficking kidnapped teenage girls, then gun down the one local resident who tries to bring it to public attention? That neighborhood is already a war zone, and I don't know anyone sensible, black or white, who will even drive through it. Even children get routinely shot by stray bullets. Facts are one thing, stereotypes another. When some of the downtown was being renovated a lot of little people sunk their life saving into it. Oakland has a lot going for it, and in fact, a big chunk of the city is rather wealthy and spends a lot of money downtown. The restaurant scene is wonderful. I might have wanted a gallery down there. Now everyone has to keep everything boarded up, and everyone is scared of entire streets. Hardworking honest people have lost their life savings to serial looters. It's about to change. People are fed up.

Old-N-Feeble · Jan 15, 2015

David Lyga said:
No, not too much with police action. Honestly, I am touchy about being confronted by them, despite not being overly afraid in Philadelphia. Discussion, however, does provide both mental and, sometimes, objective solace and, again, sometimes, actual resolution. Honestly, this topic does need to be discussed and I am not inferring that most police act in this way. But I am inferring that most police do not wish to confront other police, as that is a fact of life.

Maybe some of you will remember a couple of years ago when I posted my experience trying to enter the VA Hospital in Philadelphia because that is where we arranged to meet for me to buy a camera from a Veteran. I was not allowed into the facility because the guard said I had no legitimate purpose (meanwhilte people, relatives, family, friends, entered without any hassle).

I told the guard why I was there and as soon as I mentioned camera he grew very suspicious and said that if I dared to take a picture of the facility (its web site has a picture showing everything) guys from bungie cords would come down from the roof and deal with me. This incident was truly surreal and demonstrates how honest concern for safety sometimes evolves into mental chaos within some individuals. I called the Veteran on my mobile and we met off the grounds because I did not want to deal with the 'bungie cords'. Amazing, but true. - David Lyga

I worked for the AF and Army for a quarter century. Many of my last few years were for MEDCOM and dealing a lot with BAMC. Your experience is actually fairly common. I knew one auto parts delivery driver who was detained, then booted off Reese AFB and subsequently fired to satiate the military police captain. His offense? He had a dangerous writing pencil in his hand while arguing with the MP. My gosh, he could have stabbed that poor MP to death with that pencil before one of the three guards pulled their 9mm pistols and neutralized the thread.

Old-N-Feeble · Jan 15, 2015

lxdude said:
I agree. However, it illustrates my point about the difference recording the scene makes. The video of King, regardless of his vices or whether the police had justification or not, served to illustrate what many people had been complaining about for a long time. So it was effective, which was my point in response to what Ben said.

Irony is, the video of the savage beating of Reginald Denny during the riots that followed the cops' acquittal was not sufficient to obtain a conviction of his attackers. Juries will still do what they want. So while effective, pictures and video are not a guarantee of eventual justice.

That's largely true... but the lack of video evidence practically guarantees there will be no justice and no corrective actions will be taken.

Old-N-Feeble · Jan 15, 2015

David Lyga said:
And, also, perhaps, the behavior of wanna be hero George Zimmerman is not a manifestation of a lifelong love of peacefulness. Latest news, he beat his girlfriend. - David Lyga

What I read is he threw a wine bottle in her direction. Also, this is what his GF told the policeman after she was stopped for a driving violation... her excuse for driving dangerously. So her story just might be suspect. Unless the story changed...

David Lyga · Jan 15, 2015

Drew, violence is violence and the police have every right to react to such. No one is denying that. But, Drew, there are countless instances of police: 1) encouraging negative reaction, 2) looking the other way, 3) deciding that they, and no statutes, are the 'boss'.

No one, here or elsewhere, who is sane wants police killed, harrassed, or even challenged. But, sometimes that has to happen. Sometimes, not often, but sometimes they kill for reasons having to do more with ego than with honest reason or foresight. What I am saying is that we have to first recognize that and think about that. We NEED police and that is why this is all the more a pressing topic. Look at what is happening in Belgium right now. Those police are being targeted and need full public support. The world is emerging with people who think that they have a right to anything that they want. My maternal grandmother was correct when she used to say, repeatedly, 'Today, people are mentally ill if they do not have a Kleenex'.

We NEED to ponder this gross disparity between being 'against' authority and 'for' authority. BOTH have valid derivatives and BOTH are ill-gotten. That, nothing more, provides the dire dichotomy which needs to be explained, then resolved in sane and enduring terms. This bifurcated dilemma needs to be vetted, cleansed, and ultimately supported with a universal feeling of both reason and fairness, or else we all go down the drain.

My feelings of angst against police also hold a potentially deserved badge of merit towards them. But ... only if their oath becomes validated, confirmed, and continued. - David Lyga

DREW WILEY · Jan 15, 2015

I just think the press just warps a lot of this very one-sided, just like most of the "junk" news in this country. I know even swat cops who have taken a serious beating from some criminal in that neighborhood rather than defending themselves and going through what they considered an even worse shakedown by lawyers, city hall, etc. It's the hypocrisy of all this that get to me. This is an incredibly diverse area, ethnically;
and trying to pigeonhole everyone into just two stereotypes classes is absurd. These riots are hurting everyone, of every demographic niche. Even calling them "protests" is misleading. ...But like I said, I can't speak for elsewhere. So trying to join some "cause" as a photographer doesn't mean you're off on the correct foot. There have been a couple of recent interviews of TV cameramen discussing who they feared most. ... and there's a reason they don't want to home in on the looters. They could be the next victim. ... But if you want to research photo documentation of that specific area, there is the classic work on the Black Panthers by Pirkle Jones, one of AA's old assistants. It was dangerous then, and some things just haven't changed. Drug kingpins and pimps are still regarded as role models. Or,
if you want a scheduled alternative, and want to buy tickets to a drunken riot, in the same general neighborhood you can attend Raiders games!

DREW WILEY · Jan 15, 2015

.... Or like I already suggested, you have to get beyond the dumbed-down news. That particular neighborhood can be intensely racist, but in
just the opposite direction as the news stereotypes suggest! How would you like a sniper aiming at you just because you happen to be white,
or a policeman of any flavor?

blansky · Jan 15, 2015

lxdude said:
Irony is, the video of the savage beating of Reginald Denny during the riots that followed the cops' acquittal was not sufficient to obtain a conviction of his attackers. Juries will still do what they want. So while effective, pictures and video are not a guarantee of eventual justice.

Actually the attackers of Denny went to jail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Reginald_Denny

I remember the whole thing pretty well because I lived in LA at the time and worked down in that area a bit before that.

The riots and the fires were reminiscent of Beirut.

It was pretty surreal.

BrianShaw · Jan 15, 2015

Surreal, for sure. I spent almost an hour in the McClure tunnel trying to get from LA to the safety of somewhere north of there. That is a lot of time to be stuck in such a short tunnel... and every kook in town was roaming the street banging on car windows and acting very threatening. There was nowhere to go and no good guys in sight. Surreal to the point of Mad Max surreal.

If only I had a film camera with me at the time...

p.s. The next most surreal time was after 9-11. Almost Mad Max surrealism, but not as much as during the riots.

MartinCrabtree · Jan 15, 2015

In order for a government to be effective and responsive to it's constituents it must fear them.

lxdude · Jan 15, 2015

blansky said:
Actually the attackers of Denny went to jail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Reginald_Denny

Sloppy writing on my part. Three were convicted of the least serious charges and the jury hung on the serious ones, while Antoine Miller walked. Given the brutality of the attack, I don't think justice was served.

Old-N-Feeble · Jan 15, 2015

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty . . . And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

~ Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Stevens Smith, November 13, 1787 ~

DREW WILEY · Jan 15, 2015

My sister was a social worker in Watts when the riots broke out there; and I was an eyewitness to the bombings and massive arson that
accompanies riots here in the early 70's, and do know a few inside facts that the general public does not about the underbelly of that turbulent era. The press largely trumpeted what they were fed, then as now. But who was behind it would shock most people. Now it's everyone wanting to be the first with some sensationalistic scoop, regardless of the consequences. I'm just find it ironic how martyrs are made out of street thugs at times. There might be more appropriate candidates to choose from if one were trying to zero in on abuse by various agencies.
We did have one infamous incident a few ago the police took blame for; but it was actually an individual who was more like a security
guard - and undertrained quasi-cop who had no relation to actual city police. Who knows what that guy was thinking (or not thinking). But
training standards have significant changed as a result. The last people I'd ever trust is security guards per se - lots of the are ex-cons who
can't find any other kind of employment. But overall, anyone who deliberately provokes any kind of law enforcement person, or refuses to
comply with a distinct order, is just plains stupid.

Old-N-Feeble · Jan 15, 2015

DREW WILEY said:
My sister was a social worker in Watts when the riots broke out there; and I was an eyewitness to the bombings and massive arson that
accompanies riots here in the early 70's, and do know a few inside facts that the general public does not about the underbelly of that turbulent era. The press largely trumpeted what they were fed, then as now. But who was behind it would shock most people. Now it's everyone wanting to be the first with some sensationalistic scoop, regardless of the consequences. I'm just find it ironic how martyrs are made out of street thugs at times. There might be more appropriate candidates to choose from if one were trying to zero in on abuse by various agencies.
We did have one infamous incident a few ago the police took blame for; but it was actually an individual who was more like a security
guard - and undertrained quasi-cop who had no relation to actual city police. Who knows what that guy was thinking (or not thinking). But
training standards have significant changed as a result. The last people I'd ever trust is security guards per se - lots of the are ex-cons who
can't find any other kind of employment. But overall, anyone who deliberately provokes any kind of law enforcement person, or refuses to
comply with a distinct order, is just plains stupid.

I'm not arguing with everything you wrote with exception to what I converted to bold underlined text. IMO, anyone who complies with an unlawful order to save one's own skin, especially when another's life is in danger, doesn't deserve the freedoms (he thinks) he enjoys because he's already lost them. What... we can't even videotape another person obviously being abused because we're afraid? It just might be you or your wife or your child one day. Stand by and do nothing then.

DREW WILEY · Jan 15, 2015

Oh cut the far-fetched nonsense. You know what I mean, and I have little patience for some libertarian who thinks he so important that he refuses to go thru a basic airport screening intended to protect everyone else, or thinks he can spit in the face of a cop without risking a red flag in front of a bull syndrome. Maybe the media wishes this is a redux of the 60's, but it isn't. Things are a lot more complex, even if entrenched in certain places. And a wider proliferation of cameras is being discussed not only the protect the rights of the public, but to protect police from unfair accusation as well. Too bad they can't deploy 8x10's and get the film production into high-gear again, but those are kinda hard to mount on some helmet visor or rearview mirror or whatever. Guess the digi engineers win this round. I know from any number of specific situations how certain parties try to frame police in order to create an incident or lawsuit. That's why they try to work in
teams; but thin budgets sometimes prevent that.

Old-N-Feeble · Jan 15, 2015

1. I refuse to fly these days.

2. I never suggested "spitting in the face of a police officer".

3. Yes, I'm closer to being Libertarian than any other nonsensical label. It's sure as heck better than Republican or Democrat these days.

4. Frame police? How is recording the facts of an event "framing" anyone? The video could just as easily, and probably will, indemnify law enforcement rather than the one being arrested.

Do photographers have not only a right but also an ethical obligation to defy police?

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