Do old, proven technologies attract certain mindsets?

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David Lyga

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I like old technologies which have had all the bugs wiped out. There has NEVER been a time in the history of photography, not even 20 years ago when film was king, that film has been so good. But does this 'desire' for the tried and true, at the expense of a profound 'newness', extend to your daily life?

I have about 4,000 classical music LPs in storage that I do not indend to ever part with. Why not CDs? First, cost: most of the LPs were from thrift stores over a period of two decades. NOBODY in Philadelphia wants classical music, it seems, and, thus, I had the hoard to myself for pennies each. But, still, WHY? I guess that a rudimentary answer to that can be this: I like the fact that that needle can be seen riding the grooves and that tells me, that confirms to me, that the complete information is being transferred to my ear. This seamless presentation of the data makes me comfortable, no matter how sophisticated the sampling for CDs. There are those who will go yet further by demanding tube amplifiers. Such older technology is consistently being sought on Craigslist.org.

With film, the 'capture' is truly at the atomic level. Thus, though theoretically still 'discrete', the capture can comfortably be said to infer, at least, a seamlessness that has to mean something positlve within the realm of a perception of 'completeness'. But it is not only film's ability to capture which captivates me. I also prefer to set my aperture and shutter speeds (but also appreciate the 'advice' that the light meter offers).

What I am getting at is this: Do you wish to live your daily life with less automation? Do you think that washing dishes by hand is no harder than using a dishwasher (where you practically have to partially 'wash' the dish before you place it onto the right rack?). When you drive a long distance, do you prefer 'to be told' each and every turn, from the time you leave your driveway, or do you, like I do, prefer to see a complete mapping of the trip, from the onset, and then decide, on your own, how you will tackle that journey? Do you tend to anticipate WHEN you will stop, and where, given the ability to pre-determine rest stops, or do you wait until you are in need, and only then, do you start looking for possiblilties? When you read a book, do you want a 'Kindle' or would you prefer to have a paper version where you can pencil notes in the margin?

Finally, do you live paycheck to paycheck, or do you consider a bill due in five years to be one that demands your compelling and rigorous attention right now, so that panics will be a distinct improbibility?

Perhaps, I have extended this query too far, but it seems to me that there are distinct mindsets which tend to adhere to the proven, as opposed to the rather serendipitous. Rest assured, both are needed in order to provide a viable society with both stability and ability to go forward. - David Lyga
 

cowanw

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I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it is was a good idea to use a milk/bread poultice instead of penicillin for a Staphylococcus cellulitis, in the 1950's.
It's hard to parse out the past.
Thanks Heavens for Digital or I wouldn't be doing large format.
 

lecarp

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Thanks Heavens for Digital or I wouldn't be doing large format.
Just out of curiosity.
For what reason are you dependent on digital to work in large format.
 
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winger

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For what reason are you dependent on digital to work in large format.

People going to digital have sold off their LF equipment for way cheaper than ever before. Though I think this has now leveled out some.
 

Shawn Rahman

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Thanks Heavens for Digital or I wouldn't be doing large format.

100% agreed with this.

I have a corollary:

Thanks Heavens for Digital or I wouldn't be about to buy my first Vinyl LP in over 25 years.

I got rid of my vinyl long ago in favor of CDs; and then all of my CDs when I had everything in MP3. Now I want to buy vinyl again for my favorite albums. Digital is just "too perfect" sometimes (at least in some photography & with some music). Like some pictures, I want to now hear some music with imperfections.

I can't explain it, so please don't ask me too!

Regards,

Shawn
 

Xmas

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I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it is was a good idea to use a milk/bread poultice instead of penicillin for a Staphylococcus cellulitis, in the 1950's.
It's hard to parse out the past.
Thanks Heavens for Digital or I wouldn't be doing large format.

It is again an option in the 2010s if the bug has had Penicillin already.
 

Allen Friday

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I like proven technologies where the bugs have been worked out. I am not an early adopter.

But, the irony of your post is that CDs are a proven technology with the bugs worked out. The CD has been replaced by MP3s, AAC, FLAC, OGG and WMA downloads and Amazon Music Streaming. If you go to the local Salvation Army you will find bin after bin of used CDs for pennies on the dollar. As for tube amps, they produce a different sound from solid state. But, solid state is still a proven technology. Just look at the Marantz amps. The early tube amps are desirable for their warmth, but they have made sold state amps starting in the 1970s. How many of the audiophiles who use tube amps listen to them on 1960s era speakers?

How many cassettes do you have? How many 8-tracts. Both are proven (analogue) technologies, but audiophiles have moved away from them. Reel to reel? It is impossible to get a cassette deck in a new car from the dealer. it is getting harder and harder to get a CD player in one.

When was the last time you used a typewriter? There is a certain satisfaction of seeing and hearing the key hit the paper, impressing the paper with the ink (just like watching the needle on an album). But how many people still use them? Word-processing for the office has been around since the 1980s. I would call that a mature technology.

Do you have a microwave oven? Where does it fall in the old verses new? How many people do you know that use tube TVs?

Personally, I pick and choose from the old and the new. I like film and historic processes like wet plate and platinum prints. I enjoy older, manual cameras. But, I have a couple of digital cameras that I use for vacation and casual photography. I enjoy listening to my album collection, but I also have a DAC that I can plug my iPad into and stream from the net. I have Next Issue on the iPad so I get over 100 magazines delivered to it each month. Do I miss paper magazines? Yes and no. I was in the magazine distribution business for 25 years. I grew up on the paper magazine. Sometimes I miss the ability to rip out a page and save it for later. But when I get on plane, it's nice to carry one tablet that has replaces 100 magazines. I certainly don't miss the waste of throwing away stacks of magazines each month. I still like books; I have tried e-readers and non of them provide the same experience as a book. But, when I travel, I download my books to the iPad so there is only one thing to carry, not a stack of books.

One reason I like film is that you have to do it standing up. I spend a good part of my day in front of a computer. When I do photography, it is nice to get my hands wet.

I think people are drawn to old technologies for various reasons--they think they are better quality, they like the tactile nature of an older method, they are a nice change from digital methods... But the attraction to older technologies is very selective, except perhaps for the Amish. If there is a mind set at work, I think it is one of selecting what produces the best, most satisfying result for the person, regardless of the era when the technology was developed.
 

Steve Smith

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Thanks Heavens for Digital or I wouldn't be about to buy my first Vinyl LP in over 25 years.

On the radio last week, it was reported that vinyl sale in the UK this year will be the highest they have been for twenty years.


Steve.
 

Xmas

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On the radio last week, it was reported that vinyl sale in the UK this year will be the highest they have been for twenty years.


Steve.

Hi

Well you still have a wireless...

But 1994 was way after the peak in CD prices and by when CD players lost any sampling noise/artifice.

Noel
 

Truzi

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It depends, but I find myself gravitating towards less complex and more robust, regardless of it being newer or older technology.

For example, I like to know where where I'm going before I leave, not as I am moving. I have GPS on my phone (and in the dashboard), but don't use it. Instead I plan my trip - consulting the internet and writing directions on paper in my own short style. On a trip to New England in 2010, we did that, bought paper maps, and had a Garmin that we kept on for comparison. The Garmin was programed properly, but did a very poor job compared to selecting a route before hand on a real (or online) map. I have found this true with newer units.

I prefer the dynamic range of vinyl, though for practical purposes I use CDs. I rip to whatever format is cool at the time so I don't have to keep repurchasing the same music over and over (not an issue with lossless codecs like FLAC, but still lacks the dynamic range). Oh, and digital music is not true stereo. It seems that way, but the alternating channels do produce a phase-shift which is perceivable, even if the alternation itself is not.

I use new tech when it suits my needs. I do not change my needs to suit the tech.
 

jerrybro

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I shoot film with older cameras, listen to vinyl on an older stereo, and have the oldest daily driver in the parking lot. They all work and in some ways are superior to what is available today for the same dollars.
 

cowanw

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It is again an option in the 2010s if the bug has had Penicillin already.

Yes, we have screwed up big time using antibiotics willy nilly. I hope we don't return to the death rate of the pre antibiotic era. 20-40 % of women used to die of childbirth fever. Neither milk/bread poultices nor Mustard plasters did much. Of course washing your hands helps.
When I was a child, the summer dread was Meningitis "the killer" or Polio " the parylyser"
I had Meningitis; thank god for streptomycin.
 

moose10101

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What I am getting at is this: Do you wish to live your daily life with less automation? Do you think that washing dishes by hand is no harder than using a dishwasher (where you practically have to partially 'wash' the dish before you place it onto the right rack?). When you drive a long distance, do you prefer 'to be told' each and every turn, from the time you leave your driveway, or do you, like I do, prefer to see a complete mapping of the trip, from the onset, and then decide, on your own, how you will tackle that journey? Do you tend to anticipate WHEN you will stop, and where, given the ability to pre-determine rest stops, or do you wait until you are in need, and only then, do you start looking for possiblilties? When you read a book, do you want a 'Kindle' or would you prefer to have a paper version where you can pencil notes in the margin?

Aside from the dishwasher, where's the "automation"? I'm still driving the car; the GPS is just an aid for navigation (which, BTW, will gladly show you the entire route and adjust it as you see fit). The Kindle is just a different method of storing the words, with a slightly different technique for turning the page.

"Technology" is not the same as "automation". Are you sure you've chosen the correct word?
 

NB23

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I'm a mega film purist, I'm full of sh1t, and I wrote this post with my iPhone :D
 
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I try not to analyze my existence to that level of detail. I like some things old fashioned, such as film photography, turntables, using hand tools instead of machines, and cooking without the aid of purpose built kitchen appliances (with the exception of a spice grinder).
But I really enjoy the potential of a smart phone, as it enables me to keep in touch with my family in Sweden in ways I could only have dreamed of when I moved to the US in 2001.

Embrace what fits your life, and get on with living it. :smile:
 

Truzi

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Automation is letting something do a task for you, like look up directions. It doesn't matter that you are driving the car, as the directions are automated. You are relying on something to tell you what to do instead of doing it yourself - and if you know how to read a map, it is quicker than using buttons and menus to plan and view the route. Perhaps it is good for those who lack these simple and basic skills, but there is nothing wrong with people who do not want or need it.

The only device I fiddle with when I drive is the radio - and not one that is menu-driven or touch-screen based. I can look out the windshield and feel for what I want with no problems. My car has speech recognition, and I still find it quicker to hit the radio preset than activate the module and say what station I want to listen to. It's more efficient this way. I am not impressed with fanciful tech that takes longer to get the same (or worse) results. I'm not against tech; as a matter of fact I work in IT. If it is faster, at least as robust, and at least as effective, I use it. Simply being new, "modern," or "cool" does not make it unequivocally better.

As an example in photography, I do not want auto-focus, but I really do appreciate aperture priority. I want a fully manual body, but only as a back-up, not as a main tool - I do want a certain amount of automation. However, I don't want total automation, and I want the ability to easily turn it off.
 

Steve Smith

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I use a mixture of old and new. Obviously, I use film for photography. I don't have a dishwasher as I think it's easier just to wash up than it is to load and unload.

I listen to CDs and vinyl and shellac 78s on a wind up gramophone.

One of my part time jobs is live sound engineer. I am equally happy using old analogue mixers or the current digital mixers (some of which are excellent).

As a guitarist, I prefer older style semi-acoustic guitars like the Gretsch in my avatar image. My two usual gigging amplifiers are a 1970s WEM 17 watt valve (tube) amplifier and a modern Fender digital modeling amplifier.


Steve.
 

NJH

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I am one of those who prefers tried and tested for the simple reason that in my working life as a Systems Engineer I have seen endless tech fads that turn out to be BS wastes of time. The first was when I was still at University (Cold Fusion), then it was new variations on AI, Genetic Algorithms and Neural Networks that would solve all the worlds engineering problems. What a load of old ball cock. More recently it has been an endless line of "clever" software tools that will make your company fly such as SAP, easily the worst pile of doggy doos ever written to run on a computer and championed by a legion of useless top dollar consultants. I could go on all night with this but I have an ice cold beer sat on my table, another piece of perfect old tech.
 

Lee Rust

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There's no question that digital outperforms analog in almost every quantifiable way. On the other hand, the inherent physicality of chemical and mechanical technologies is more resilient, visually intuitive and understandable than invisible electronic circuits and computer programs.

For some, the old ways are enjoyable because we must be actively engaged in a physical and mental process, so much so that we are fairly accepting of flaws because of our investment of time and energy. With digital, no matter how brilliant and perfect the results, beyond a few swipes or clicks we aren't very involved and can quickly become bored or distracted.

For my part at least, there's also the reality of growing older. Throwing out the old high tech knowledge and equipment after purchasing and relearning the new high tech every few years has become exhausting, both financially and mentally. I have my share of digital stuff, but find myself attracted to the traditional methods that have been thoroughly worked out and have a finite learning curve that is not a moving target.
 
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David Lyga

David Lyga

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I like proven technologies where the bugs have been worked out. I am not an early adopter.

But, the irony of your post is that CDs are a proven technology with the bugs worked out. The CD has been replaced by MP3s, AAC, FLAC, OGG and WMA downloads and Amazon Music Streaming. If you go to the local Salvation Army you will find bin after bin of used CDs for pennies on the dollar. As for tube amps, they produce a different sound from solid state. But, solid state is still a proven technology. Just look at the Marantz amps. The early tube amps are desirable for their warmth, but they have made sold state amps starting in the 1970s. How many of the audiophiles who use tube amps listen to them on 1960s era speakers?

How many cassettes do you have? How many 8-tracts. Both are proven (analogue) technologies, but audiophiles have moved away from them. Reel to reel? It is impossible to get a cassette deck in a new car from the dealer. it is getting harder and harder to get a CD player in one.

When was the last time you used a typewriter? There is a certain satisfaction of seeing and hearing the key hit the paper, impressing the paper with the ink (just like watching the needle on an album). But how many people still use them? Word-processing for the office has been around since the 1980s. I would call that a mature technology.

Do you have a microwave oven? Where does it fall in the old verses new? How many people do you know that use tube TVs?

Personally, I pick and choose from the old and the new. I like film and historic processes like wet plate and platinum prints. I enjoy older, manual cameras. But, I have a couple of digital cameras that I use for vacation and casual photography. I enjoy listening to my album collection, but I also have a DAC that I can plug my iPad into and stream from the net. I have Next Issue on the iPad so I get over 100 magazines delivered to it each month. Do I miss paper magazines? Yes and no. I was in the magazine distribution business for 25 years. I grew up on the paper magazine. Sometimes I miss the ability to rip out a page and save it for later. But when I get on plane, it's nice to carry one tablet that has replaces 100 magazines. I certainly don't miss the waste of throwing away stacks of magazines each month. I still like books; I have tried e-readers and non of them provide the same experience as a book. But, when I travel, I download my books to the iPad so there is only one thing to carry, not a stack of books.

One reason I like film is that you have to do it standing up. I spend a good part of my day in front of a computer. When I do photography, it is nice to get my hands wet.

I think people are drawn to old technologies for various reasons--they think they are better quality, they like the tactile nature of an older method, they are a nice change from digital methods... But the attraction to older technologies is very selective, except perhaps for the Amish. If there is a mind set at work, I think it is one of selecting what produces the best, most satisfying result for the person, regardless of the era when the technology was developed.

Well, Allen, no, I do NOT have (or want) a microwave oven. I use ONLY the gas stove top and that gets this vegetarian everything he could possibly want, food-wise. I lack nothing (except space). I never liked cassettes because of the inherent malfunctions with breakage, (but I have a great respect for reel to reel tape and its editing possibilities). An LP is solid (as is a CD, granted). I have about four CDs. A typewriter I still have: it comes in handy if I need to address an envelope and do not wish to use a label. Yes, Allen, I think that to 'pick and choose' is perhaps the wisest choice here rather than to be tethered to a life-format that just might be more political than pragmatic.

I am a bit surprised with the rather poignant responses: it gives the impression that this topic is being taken personally and, by extension, means something other than mere convenience. All I really wanted to do was to explore the issue of just how tethered these decisions (which we all make) are to factors other than the obvious. For some, the holding of a film camera, seeing the image appear with chemicals, displaying a tactile paper print, the mental satisfaction of not allowing algorithms to enter into the pictorial result (as in digital) ... these are factors which continue, sort of analogously, onto the daily life practices we all experience and embrace. - David Lyga
 
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Steve Smith

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I have an ice cold beer sat on my table, another piece of perfect old tech.

It would be even better if it wasn't cold!


Steve.
 

winger

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I use a mix, but I appreciate the things with more mechanical and less electronic parts a little more. One time when driving from MA back to western PA, the Garmin told me at the CT/NY border (while on rt 84, I think) that there was no way to get to my destination from where I was. Um, yeah.
The vehicle I've been driving the most since moving to IA is our Escape Hybrid - you want a computer on wheels, this is it. Last December, something caused the power steering to fail. It's electronically assisted, not good old hydraulics. We had one control module replaced, but it's still not working. Yes, it's driveable with no power steering, just annoying in parking lots (most of the roads are straight here). The time factor is our fault, not Ford's, but we've gotten different diagnostic answers from the two closest shops here (each about 45 minutes). I'll take the '70 Challenger any day (if he'd let me).

But I do love the feel of solidity of my venerable Pentax H1a - 2 CLAs in the last 30 years and working nicely (knock on wood).
 

Roger Cole

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So many mixed things here. I rely on GPS, love it, don't know how I got by without it, at least when I didn't have a paper map along. But then again I'm the world's WORST about direction sense. I'm always shocked when people expect me to just drive right to a place because "well you've been there before." Huh? Well yes, and if I've been there before AT LEAST three or four times, in the past two weeks, when *I* was driving, AND I knew I'd have to drive back alone so I was paying attention, then I might, maybe, stand a better than 50% chance of finding it again. If you think I'm exaggerating I assure you I am not. OTOH I am good with maps and did fine with paper maps in the old days but I don't always have maps. I do always have my phone and that (almost, except when out of cell data range) always has maps. I can pull over and consult the map and scroll around, scale etc. plus it talks through my stereo for turn by turn, AND it will find the nearest restaurant of specified style etc. I wouldn't want to go back to driving any place new without it. Oh, AND it updates live traffic data off the Internet and will find the quickest route for the traffic congestion at that time - try that with a paper map.

I used a LOT of paper plates before I had a dishwasher. :D I don't understand the "almost have to wash them" thing. If they have gunk on them just a quick rinse, otherwise just plop them in.

OTOH I do love my film, darkroom, vinyl etc.

I think for me the bottom line is that I often prefer the older and "more personally involved" process when I'm doing something for my own enjoyment. When I just want to get a job done that I have no emotional connection to, like washing dishes or getting to a certain address, I'm happy to use whatever tech is available that will help with that.
 

Roger Cole

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Oh and I would not live without a microwave oven, not in a world where they are available. When I was a bachelor I, no exaggeration again, had times when I would go 5-6 months without my stove ever being used (and I did not eat out, except as a social activity with friends on occasional weekends) but boy I kept that microwave humming. :wink:
 

Roger Cole

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It would be even better if it wasn't cold!


Steve.

Americans drink beer too cold, and ice cold is too cold, granted. OTOH, room temperature beer is vile.

The "ice cold beer" thing came out of American mass market beers during WW2. With the men away most of the traditional market was gone and American breweries tried to create beer that would appeal to people (the women who stayed home) who at that time were not traditional beer drinkers. I forget where I read it but one brewery owner was said to have even told his brewers to "come up with water that will hold a head." If you are going to drink such vile crap, ice cold to chill the palate makes it more tolerable. OTOH a cool, but not ice cold, beer tastes far better than a warm one (to many of us anyway!)

Thankfully, while those "mass market consumer rice lagers" are still around, there are superb beers brewed all over the US now.
 
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