Do Autofocus Scanners Have Trouble Focusing on B&W Film?

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agentlossing

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Question for scanning masters. I have Pacific Image XAs which I've used for a couple of years now, and know my way around pretty well, using the copy of Silverfast which came with the scanner. But something I've noticed upon scanning some more color C41 negatives, as opposed to the B&W film I develop and scan more regularly: C41 film seems to resolve better on the scanner, such that I see the grain structure much more clearly than with B&W. The latter often seems a bit murky when I look at the scans closely. I scan at 5000dpi and I display at a considerably smaller size so I haven't ever worried about this, but I was surprised at how comparatively good the C41 scans look at or near 100%.

This got me thinking as to whether it's something inherent in the emulsion for B&W versus C41, or if maybe the scanner is actually having more trouble focusing clearly, to a grain level, on B&W negatives. Anyone have insight into this? I'm considering fooling around with the manual focus on the XAs to try for a better B&W scan just to prove/disprove this theory, but since I haven't played around with that at all, it's probably going to take some time before I know what I am doing.
 

koraks

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I really don't know, but the thoughts this triggers with me is:
1: I'd expect the opposite, given the inherently somewhat vague (diffuse and sem-transparent) nature of dye clouds as opposed to silver grain.
2: In my scanning, I've always found B&W to resolve in a more crisp manner. But since I've mostly used a scanner that resolves maybe 3000dpi on a good day, I also realize that whatever I see is only an approximation of the real data in a negative.
 

Alan9940

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I really don't know, either, but I can tell you that my Minolta Scan Elite 5400 II has no problem autofocusing on B&W film. Since I don't shoot color, I have no specifics in that regard.
 
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agentlossing

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I really don't know, but the thoughts this triggers with me is:
1: I'd expect the opposite, given the inherently somewhat vague (diffuse and sem-transparent) nature of dye clouds as opposed to silver grain.
2: In my scanning, I've always found B&W to resolve in a more crisp manner. But since I've mostly used a scanner that resolves maybe 3000dpi on a good day, I also realize that whatever I see is only an approximation of the real data in a negative.

C41 negatives do seem denser overall than B&W, even if it's only the dyes and toned substrate. Maybe an aid to scanner focus? I'll see if I can't get some idea focusing manually.
 

_T_

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I have the same scanner as you OP. I never noticed an improvement in the auto focus with either color or b&w film in scanning about a hundred rolls of film, but that doesn’t mean that your unit isn’t showing this behavior.

What I did see was that the rollers that hold the film while scanning do not hold the film completely flat. Depending on the curl of the film this meant that more or less of the frame would end up in perfect focus.

The autofocus seemed to focus on the center of the frame and as you moved outwards the image would be some degree out of focus depending on the exact geometry at which the rollers happened to be holding the film.

Could it be that you’re seeing an effect like this in your scans? Can you find an area of sharp focus at the point where your scanner is actually deciding to focus as I saw in my scans?

If so it can help some to make sure that your film is as flat as possible before scanning.

I used to place my sleeved negatives under a book for several hours before scanning with some improvement.
 
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agentlossing

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1687490270932.png


This is what my scans look like at 100%, 10k dpi. They look similar at 5k dpi. Should B&W film resolve better at a grain level than this?
 
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agentlossing

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1687490395353.png


Here is C41, albeit at 5k dpi, but still... the grain looks a lot crisper to me, and like the actual grain structure, while I don't quite see that in the B&W.
 
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agentlossing

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Although, to be fair, the first B&W was HP5+ pushed one stop. Here is Kentmere 400 shot at 320 and developed normally, plus with a sharper lens (Pentax-M 50mm f1.7)

1687490834221.png
 

_T_

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None of the photos you posted are particularly good for making such comparisons.

The differences you’re seeing in these are much more likely to be caused by you than any piece of equipment in the image chain.
 
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agentlossing

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These are just 100% crops, I'm talking about grain structure. Should I be seeing more actual grain with the b&w crops? There seems to be very well defined grain in the color crop.
 

koraks

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There seems to be very well defined grain in the color crop.

What I see in the color scan is a lot of digital noise. This makes sense since C41 negatives are low gamma so there will be a lot of analog and/or digital gain being applied to yield a normal (digital) contrast range. This translates into noise. This isn't helped of course by the fact that all three color channels are needed to create three distinct images, and there's no possibility for bunching the channels together into a single signal to cut down noise, which with B&W is possible. You can tell it's digital noise because there's no physical geometry about it except for distinct pixel-to-pixel variation.

As to your B&W scans: like @_T_ says, it's a little hard to tell what exactly we're looking at, and for instance the HP5+ scan is not labeled as either 5kdpi or 10kdpi. In any case, there are a couple of things you need to keep in mind when scanning at very high resolutions and the limitations of the output:

* The odds that your scanner resolves its claimed 10,000dpi are next to zero. To the best of my knowledge, your scanner is also sold under the Reflecta brand, and allegedly, this particular scanner can resolve around 4300dpi: https://www.filmscanner.info/en/ReflectaRPS10M.html This is really, really good!

* 100% crops of film scans pretty much always end up looking insanely 'mushy' (apart from possible digital noise as mentioned above). Don't expect something that looks like the output of a digital camera. Focus problems can be part of this, as are inherent limitations to the resolving power of the lens used and all manner of optical deficiencies, and yes, focus problems. But even with exact focus, you end up with an unsharp image viewed at 100%.

* Scanning grain is a pretty complex phenomenon - grain itself actually is. There's a really nice article that's already a few years old, but that illustrates quite nicely what the difference between 'grain' (as we or scanners see it) and actual silver particles, what kind of sizes/magnitudes we're talking about, how granularity is measured, what kind of real-world resolutions this translates into etc., and most importantly, what grain means when scanning film: https://vashivisuals.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2007-04-vitale-filmgrain_resolution.pdf

One of the key takeaways of the Vitale article above is that what we know as grain, is in fact a kind of interference pattern that emerges if you look through a 3-dimensional emulsion with dye clouds or silver particles suspended in it, which appear to partly overlap when viewed perpendicular to the emulsion (and then everything changes if the viewing direction changes, and/or the backlight angle changes!). The pattern will be different if the viewing angle changes - and the interference pattern will furthermore interact with the resolving power of an observing apparatus, like a scanner. To make matters even worse, the dye clouds or silver particles turn out not to be discrete 'binary' artefacts that have a distinct density, but rather complex geometries with varying optical density if you further enlarge them (far beyond the resolution of any scanner). This all boils down to that there's only a weak relationship between physical silver or dye clusters and the pixel pattern that we experience as grain. Given the several factors that interact, it can be challenging to interpret a digital scan in terms of grain. Simply put; most of the time it's just not very clear what you're looking at in the first place.

Another issue is of course that of resolution. Your scanner will resolve in the real world something like 5um 'dots' in a best case scenario. The 'grain' in film is on the scale of around that mark (5um) up to maybe 50um if you take a large bandwidth. So in a typical case, the grain will be somewhere around the 'size' of 1 or 2 pixels of your scanner. This means that your scanner, including its tendency to add noise to the signal, its optical shortcomings, the inherent problems with visualizing grain etc. etc. will simply never be able to image 'distinct' grain. A lower-resolution scanner may in some cases even appear to be doing a better job if there happens to be a crisp interference pattern between the scanner and the compound effect of silver particles (partly) in the optical path.

And I haven't even touched on the issues of film flatness, limitations of optical/camera systems (alright, not so relevant when just looking at grain), film processing (which does influence granularity in several ways)...

So this is a very long way of saying that for many reasons, it's pretty much impossible to tell what in the heck we're looking at :wink:

If you want to figure out how well your particular scanner works, I see no other solution than to do the tedious work of scanning resolution targets and then interpreting those. But in the end, I doubt that doing so will make you a better photographer, and in itself, it will also not make your scans any better. Keep in mind you're using a consumer-grade piece of equipment of a couple of hundred eurodollarpounds to image down to a 5um resolution. If you think about it, it's a bit of a miracle this sort of works in the first place :wink:
 

snusmumriken

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Try scanning your B&W negative as an RGB file if you haven't already. Remove any colour cast from the emulsion in post processing, but RGB will ensure you are capturing every bit of information.
I've seen this said elsewhere, but why is it the case? Isn't the scanner software de-saturating the raw file in exactly the same way as you would do later in post processing?

I have followed the advice and done scans this way, but honestly I can't detect any difference. That may be due to my low quality domestic scanner, of course, or my ignorance in how to handle the RGB file. So any tips would be very welcome.
 

Alan9940

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I've seen this said elsewhere, but why is it the case? Isn't the scanner software de-saturating the raw file in exactly the same way as you would do later in post processing?

I've seen writeups that advocate for scanning B&W film in RGB, and then using the green channel data only. Supposedly, this gives you a cleaner, sharper image to begin with. Never tested it myself. I scan to a linear raw file and convert with the ColorPerfect plugin.
 

destroya

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no, auto focus, I have found, does not have any issues. I do use viewscan with 2 of my scannes and it lets me select the AF point. I just pick something with a high contrast edge.

check your developer, that can have a impact on scanning. a high sodium sulphite developer can result in mushy grain. I really doubt your scanner is resolving down to the grain level. maybe if you use a drum scanner. when you use interpolation resolution on scans, you will get digital artifacts which are yucky. figure out what you true resolution scan is and use that. Don't pixel peep! make a print and use that to decide your results. if you want really "sharp" grain you will need to sharpen in photoshop, make sure to not go over the top with sharpening, It can look fake if you take to to far.

I always scan B&W in 16 bit grey scale, using the green channel with 2 of my scanners, a Dimage 5400 I and a nikon CS9000. My flextight does not give the the color channel option, but I still scan with it in grey scale.

over the years, I have found that I need to develop negs that I plan to scan a little different than negs I plan to enlarge for a wet print. for scanning I want a slightly thinner neg that if wet printing. I also find a reduced agitation pyro developer gives me the easiest negs to scan. I have settled on pyro-m for all my negs.

john
 
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agentlossing

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Keep in mind you're using a consumer-grade piece of equipment of a couple of hundred eurodollarpounds to image down to a 5um resolution. If you think about it, it's a bit of a miracle this sort of works in the first place

More like $600 of those units, which makes it slightly less miraculous, but I get your point. I don't have unrealistic expectations from my gear (and I understand all the claimed versus real resolution stuff), I just wanted to make sure I was getting the best out of my equipment.
 
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agentlossing

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no, auto focus, I have found, does not have any issues. I do use viewscan with 2 of my scannes and it lets me select the AF point. I just pick something with a high contrast edge.

I experimented with that yesterday, Silverfast lets you do this also. I didn't find any improvement by selecting a high-contrast area and having the scanner AF to that, but it doesn't hurt either.
 
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agentlossing

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Try scanning your B&W negative as an RGB file if you haven't already. Remove any colour cast from the emulsion in post processing, but RGB will ensure you are capturing every bit of information.

I'll give that a try, could be interesting. Silverfast has a scan to grayscale option in the color negative workflow, so it could scan RGB and save the TIFF as B&W without adding steps to my post-processing workflow.
 
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agentlossing

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What I see in the color scan is a lot of digital noise. This makes sense since C41 negatives are low gamma so there will be a lot of analog and/or digital gain being applied to yield a normal (digital) contrast range. This translates into noise. This isn't helped of course by the fact that all three color channels are needed to create three distinct images, and there's no possibility for bunching the channels together into a single signal to cut down noise, which with B&W is possible. You can tell it's digital noise because there's no physical geometry about it except for distinct pixel-to-pixel variation.

This answer is the most helpful piece of insight provided so far, thank you.
 

albireo

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And I haven't even touched on the issues of film flatness, limitations of optical/camera systems (alright, not so relevant when just looking at grain), film processing (which does influence granularity in several ways)...

So this is a very long way of saying that for many reasons, it's pretty much impossible to tell what in the heck we're looking at :wink:

None of the above is specific to a dedicated film scanner based setup, though. It's part and parcel of film photography, which involves interpreting a negative image, pretty useless by itself, to turn it into a positive for final enjoyment.

Most of what you said is in fact even truer for other scanning techniques (eg camera scanning approaches based on interpolating Bayer or Xtrans sensors) and a million times worse with optical photographic printing, where instead of a factory calibrated high quality dedicated lens such as the one built in a Reflecta or a Nikon or a Minolta scanner you have a complex set up made up of an (often manually aligned or misaligned) enlarger, an enlarger head, a flare-prone enlarger lens of unclear/variable MTF performance, unclear film flatness in the holder, not to mention human variability in the capability of focusing any grain present, not to mention, again, a highly non linear final support, the photographic paper.

Personally, and just as another example, having calibrated my film scanner based setup to obtain results I enjoy, I would never trust the results I would get from any other chain, especially a fully analog one based on reprojecting the negative onto positive paper. I would never be sure of what the heck I'm looking at :wink: Am I looking at something determined by the paper? By the negative? By my rickety enlarger?

In general, people need to realise that the widely held belief that there is one "gold standard" film photography process (expose-develop-wet print) and "many approximations" is false, nowadays, for many people.
 
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albireo

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something I've noticed upon scanning some more color C41 negatives, as opposed to the B&W film I develop and scan more regularly: C41 film seems to resolve better on the scanner, such that I see the grain structure much more clearly than with B&W. The latter often seems a bit murky when I look at the scans closely. I scan at 5000dpi and I display at a considerably smaller size so I haven't ever worried about this, but I was surprised at how comparatively good the C41 scans look at or near 100%.

Couple of quick questions (apologies if I've missed this).

1. Do you use the same camera/lens setup to shoot your B/W and C41 negatives?

(Assuming your film scanner's AF excursion is limited to a certain DOF beyond which it will give up):

2. Do you process both your B/W and C41 negatives yourself? If not, do you outsource your C41? In this case, is there significant systematic difference in flatness of the negatives across the two workflows?

How does your negative holder look like? In my Minolta, I have to trim any excess unexposed film around around the six frames in the strip, otherwise the strip will sit unevenly in the holder and the warp will lead to less than optimal sharpness. Could you load two sets of strips (one BW and one colour) and check if the holder is correctly clamping onto the negative?
 
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no, auto focus, I have found, does not have any issues. I do use viewscan with 2 of my scannes and it lets me select the AF point. I just pick something with a high contrast edge.

check your developer, that can have a impact on scanning. a high sodium sulphite developer can result in mushy grain. I really doubt your scanner is resolving down to the grain level. maybe if you use a drum scanner. when you use interpolation resolution on scans, you will get digital artifacts which are yucky. figure out what you true resolution scan is and use that. Don't pixel peep! make a print and use that to decide your results. if you want really "sharp" grain you will need to sharpen in photoshop, make sure to not go over the top with sharpening, It can look fake if you take to to far.

I always scan B&W in 16 bit grey scale, using the green channel with 2 of my scanners, a Dimage 5400 I and a nikon CS9000. My flextight does not give the the color channel option, but I still scan with it in grey scale.

over the years, I have found that I need to develop negs that I plan to scan a little different than negs I plan to enlarge for a wet print. for scanning I want a slightly thinner neg that if wet printing. I also find a reduced agitation pyro developer gives me the easiest negs to scan. I have settled on pyro-m for all my negs.

john

Has anyone scanned with the green channel using Epsonscan and Epson scanners?
 
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agentlossing

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Couple of quick questions (apologies if I've missed this).

1. Do you use the same camera/lens setup to shoot your B/W and C41 negatives?

(Assuming your film scanner's AF excursion is limited to a certain DOF beyond which it will give up):

2. Do you process both your B/W and C41 negatives yourself? If not, do you outsource your C41? In this case, is there significant systematic difference in flatness of the negatives across the two workflows?

How does your negative holder look like? In my Minolta, I have to trim any excess unexposed film around around the six frames in the strip, otherwise the strip will sit unevenly in the holder and the warp will lead to less than optimal sharpness. Could you load two sets of strips (one BW and one colour) and check if the holder is correctly clamping onto the negative?

I think what I was identifying was actually chroma noise form the scanner in the C41 images, rather than actual grain/silver level. So with that, I'm getting similar results from the two types of film. I think my scanner resolves somewhere in the middle of "clumps of" grain (the grain we normally see) and actual silver, such that when I look at the 100% image, it's mushy and weird because it is resolving past those clumps of grain, but not all the way to the finest level of silver, which I don't need it to do anyway.
 

albireo

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I think what I was identifying was actually chroma noise form the scanner in the C41 images, rather than actual grain/silver level. So with that, I'm getting similar results from the two types of film. I think my scanner resolves somewhere in the middle of "clumps of" grain (the grain we normally see) and actual silver, such that when I look at the 100% image, it's mushy and weird because it is resolving past those clumps of grain, but not all the way to the finest level of silver, which I don't need it to do anyway.

I'd disagree that what you're describing explains what you're seeing in post #7 and 9#. Something else is at play here. You should expect much better results from a film scanner. I am getting vastly better definition from a 3200 (true) dpi Minolta scanner from all my BW negatives.
 
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