DMax and bit depth

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johnnywalker

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I'm beginning to think reading the specs is a mug's game and I should have just asked if anyone had any experience with the scanner I ordered - an HP G4050 (I know, I should have waited for the results of this thread, but I was taken in by the HP marketing, the fact that it will scan 4x5, and the price). I do not plan on making "fine art" prints with these scans by the way. I have a darkroom for my feeble attempts at that.
 

Rudeofus

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@keithwms: Please don't forget that D is a logarithmic measure. You'd need a nuclear device to blast through a D of 20.

Many folks here seem to focus on ADC performance as the limiting factor, although very decent 16 bit ADCs have been available for a long time by now. What hasn't changed nearly as much is the full well capacity of digital sensors, though. Even the huge pixels of the Canon 1D II would overflow with 2^16 electrons, so a 16 bit ADC would be barely useful, but it is safe to assume that scanner pixels are way smaller. Due to this limitation a brighter light source wouldn't buy you as much as you might think. You could only reach higher Dmax at the cost of equally higher Dmin.

Also note that not all light follows the intended optical path (even multi coated lenses produce stray light in the low % range), so you also get some base brightness which destroys deep shadow details regardless of sensor or ADC noise. The inside of most flat bed scanners with its bright shiny metal parts doesn't really do much to dampen stray light either.

One thing I have never understood: While it's possible to make multiple passes over the film area (which introduces extra blurriness if the motors are slightly inaccurate), why don't these scanners make multiple exposures of every pixel at once? With 256 successive exposures one could cut down noise by a factor of 16 and completely remove problems with the full well capacity of the sensor. Since the mirror doesn't have to move during these exposures, scan time can't be all that much higher. Averaging of these 256 values could be made on a line per line basis, which cuts down memory consumption.
 

pellicle

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Are these related? In my search for a film scanner I see some manufacturers specify DMax (like Epson) and others (like HP) bit depth, but I haven't noticed both specified together.

there is the theory and there is the observation of what devices do.

Dmax should be related to the density which can be determined. I think the makers like to equate Dmax to the levels described by the numerical system of digital.

I put a Stouffer step wedge into my LS-4000's holder and scanned it:

in my view ...: Testing LS-4000 with Stouffer Stepwedge

and also onto my 4990

in my view ...: Epson 4990 response testing

what I see in reading those results is that the noise in the darker channels seen washed out the signal. If Dmax is the ability to penetrate into the shadows and discern more details, then I didn't see much more Dmax on the LS-4000 than on my Epson.

If it means something else then at least you have my results to make something else from.


hope that helps
 

jd callow

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I'm beginning to think reading the specs is a mug's game and I should have just asked if anyone had any experience with the scanner I ordered - an HP G4050 (I know, I should have waited for the results of this thread, but I was taken in by the HP marketing, the fact that it will scan 4x5, and the price). I do not plan on making "fine art" prints with these scans by the way. I have a darkroom for my feeble attempts at that.

Johnny Let us know how the scanner works for you. Until you posted i wasn't even aware it existed.
 

gmikol

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One thing I have never understood: While it's possible to make multiple passes over the film area (which introduces extra blurriness if the motors are slightly inaccurate), why don't these scanners make multiple exposures of every pixel at once? With 256 successive exposures one could cut down noise by a factor of 16 and completely remove problems with the full well capacity of the sensor. Since the mirror doesn't have to move during these exposures, scan time can't be all that much higher. Averaging of these 256 values could be made on a line per line basis, which cuts down memory consumption.

Some scanners and scanning software do permit this, but usually only up to 16x sampling. Don't forget, neither of these will eliminate fixed-pattern noise or flare. Both VueScan and Silverfast support multi-sampling on the Nikons and Epsons (all the way back to my old 1640, at least in VueScan), as well as the Minolta 5400's. The Plustek 7500 and the Primefilm hardware does not support this, so there's no way for software to make multi-sampling work. Though I've found that both have excellent pass-to-pass registration, provided you can keep the slide from rattling around a bit...a little folded-up post-it did the trick for me.

--Greg
 

R Shaffer

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Yeah...there appears to be a lot of confusion here...and the geek in me feels the need to try and clear some of it up. And manufacturers do a lot to obscure facts, so that doesn't help us, either.

Here goes:

1) There are 2 bit-depths at play here, the bit depth of the output file, typically 8-bit or 16-bit *per channel (RGB + optional Infra-Red), and the bit depth of the A/D converter in the scanner...anywhere from 8-16 bits (or 24, with the HP, apparently). We're interested in the bit depth of the A/D converter, a 16bpc output file can accommodate any A/D converter up to 16 bits. i.e. it's easy to put 3/4 a gallon of milk into a gallon container.

2) 8 bits = 256 distinct levels (2^8)
10 bits = 1024 distinct levels (2^1024)
...
16 bits = 65536 distinct levels (2^16)

3) What really matters is dynamic range (Dmax-Dmin). But for practical purposes, lets assume the Dmin of slide film=0, so that Drange = Dmax, since on many scanners, the scanning time or exposure can be increased so that Dmin of the film yields a full-scale reading from the A/D, effectively rendering Drange=Dmax. It seems when most manufacturers talk about Dmax, the either mean Drange, or they assume Dmin=0, which is effectively the same thing.

4) The A/D converter operates linearly. All gamma encoding, ICC profiles, etc. are all applied after the scan. So for an 8-bit scanner, the very brightest thing it can sense will yield an output value of 255, and the darkest, 0. This is how you get 256 steps for an 8-bit scanner. Therefore, the darkest thing it can scan is 256 times darker than the brightest thing it can scan. A brightness range of 256 = 8 stops = 2.4 logD. As you can see from (1) every additional bit of bit depth = a doubling of the number of levels, which results in a halving of the minimum brightness level, so it's easy to equate 1 bit = 0.3 logD of brightness range, and that's theoretically correct. Now, this theoretical 8-bit scanner can scan through something that's denser than 2.4 logD, say 3.2. But in order to do so, everything lighter than 0.8logD must all register as full-scale (completely white), because the dynamic range (Drange) can *never* exceed 2.4 for a theoretical 8-bit scanner, 3.0 for a theoretical 10-bit scanner, etc.

4A) Now, if you're scanning, say B&W neg film, which may only have a density of 2.0, any decent 10-bit scanner and up should be able to handle it without much problem. In this case, the scanner is capable of a greater brightness range than the subject presents. So film base will be white (or nearly so), but the maximum density on your film will render as some dark gray. No problem, simply set the black point (a la PS "Levels" tool) and you're good to go. The scanner has basically "exposed-to-the-right" (for all you digi-cam users out there), using the least-noisy bits of the A/D, and setting the black point then (mathematically) "stretches" the data to cover the full 16-bit range.

5) So theoretically, a 16-bit A/D in a scanner has a Dmax (Drange) of 4.8 logD. But from a practical standpoint, that number is lower, due to any number of factors, which together we refer to as "noise". An excellent sampling system may only have 1 bit of equivalent noise, meaning that the average noise level in a 16-bit scanner is 65536 times smaller than the full-scale signal. An ordinary system may have 2-3 bits of noise, and a poorly-designed system may have as many as 6 bits of noise (meaning that the average noise level is now only 1024 times less than the full-scale signal, effectively creating a 10-bit scanner). Now, some noise is random, so if we acquire each sample multiple times (or do multiple scan passes in perfect registration), we can reduce the random noise in a system. But there is also non-random noise in the system. Hi-ISO fans of DSLR's may know this as "banding" or "fixed-pattern" noise. Nothing short of re-designing the scanning system will eliminate this noise.


So a disreputable scanner manufacturer might say 16-bit output file = 4.8 Dmax.

A lazy manufacturer (or a good one driven by it's marketing department) may say 16-bit A/D = 4.8Dmax (theoretically correct, but less, in practice, due to noise).

A good manufacturer not driven by it's marketing department will actually test it's design and report a number that comes out of that test...but I don't know if there are any standards that govern that, kinda like "Watts" for a speaker or amp.

Here are some examples, all with 16-bit A/D's, Dmax quoted by the manufacturer:

Nikon LS-5000 : "Density Range: 4.8D"
Epson V750 : "Optical Density: 4 Dmax "
PrimeFilm 7250Pro3 : "3.6 Dynamic Range"
Plustek 7600i : "Dynamic Range: 3.5"

Nikon appears to be the marketing scofflaw, here. Though, in practice, it probably does out-perform the other 3 in this regard (Dmax/Drange).


Anyway...that's a pretty dense post...I hope somebody benefits from it...

--Greg

Wow, I'm gonna start calling you Professor Greg.
 
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johnnywalker

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I played with my HP G4050 today. I had read the reviews and most of the negative ones seem to focus on problems with Vista and Windows 7. I was assured by the store that the new drivers worked fine for both. I had no problem running it on Windows 7. While it does seem to do a reasonable job with colour slides and film, I had a difficult time getting decent black and white scans. I tried scanning b&w negs in colour and greyscale, and just ended up with not enough tones and too much contrast. My b&w prints scan much better on my $90 Canoscan Lide70 than the negatives do on the G4050. It may be at least partly due to my lack of experience. Another beef I have with it is that there is no manual. It says there is one on the disk, but all I get is "file not found".
I'm returning it on Thursday, and may pick up a Canon CS9000f to try. Or maybe do without. It's something that would be handy sometimes, not a necessity for me, and therefore not worth spending big bucks on a high end one.
If I do try out the Canon I'll let you all know how that works out. In the meantime thanks for all the advice, some of which was way over my head but obviously interesting to others.
 

jd callow

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Yep, I learned something and it reassured my penchant for not trusting what is written on the outside of the box.

Johnny it may be that your scanner software is set to auto correct which might work fine for color (bigger histogram) and not so well for b/w. See if there is a button or switch for turning off "Optimize", "auto correct" or "color correct" It is often a good idea to scan b/w in RGB and then only use one or two of the channels.
 
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johnnywalker

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I returned the HP G4050 and picked up a Canoscan 9000F. The latter is a keeper. It was $50 cheaper than the HP, at $200. It's obviously not a pro scanner, but it does what I want it to very well. It does MF and 35mm slides and negatives and imports everything into Elements (which is included - version 8) for touching up and cataloging. Unfortunately it won't do 4x5 (unless I were willing to scan and stitch), but I can live with that. I will experiment with John's suggestions above when I get more familiar with it.
 

pellicle

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I returned the HP G4050 and picked up a Canoscan 9000F. The latter is a keeper.

glad to hear you got a scanner you like. I recommend you lash out with US$10 and buy the 21 step transmission wedge from Stouffer ... it will show you a lot about your depth in a quantitative way.
 
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