DK-50, Still alive and well?

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Paul Verizzo

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After a several year hiatus, back into film and film processing. My interests in B&W chemistry have been mostly around Divided Development and the replacement of hydroquinone with ascorbate alternatives.

I decided to go where no Paul has gone before and to play with DK-50 for a number of reasons. Widely admired for many decades as a great sheet and tank film developer, it was one of Kodak's developers that had alleged magical properties by the use of Kodalk, hence the K in the name. Any alkali with the same pH and buffering capability would work as well, in reality. But that was marketing in the 1930's.

Descriptions of DK-50 have always included accolades like “crisp,” “clean,” “sharp,” “stable,” and the generic “wonderful.” But also, "not fine grain." Obviously, therefore, an “acutance” developer as the 30g/liter sulphite would imply. Yet, to this day Kodak includes lists it, diluted 1:1 in the 35mm Tri-X data sheet! Go figger.

What IS truly weird and different with DK-50 is that it uses the same amounts of Metol and Hydroquinone. Almost all other HQ superadditive developers I've ever seen use somewhere around the 1:4 ratio for maximum silver reduction per minimal chemical amount (1:9 for Phenidone/HQ developers.) And using only 30% of the sodium sulfite of D-76, it is most certainly an "acutance" developer, relatively. So who needs fine grain with a modern low or medium speed (100) film? Not I, I answered when I asked myself.

Something not often realized is that HQ has a very, almost scary, temperature/activity curve, while that of Metol or Phenidone is much, much less. I have no proof or resources to confirm my suspicion is that one of the reasons DK-50 is/was so beloved is that 1:1 M:Q ratio. This would be especially true at elevated temperatures, for whatever the reason. Behaving more like D-23 than D-72!

Then I went two steps further. I mixed DK-50 up double strength for a stock solution, but without the Kodalk. I dub thee "D-50." I split that into two bottles, one reserved for stock to dilute, and the other one for playing with as a divided developer. In fact, the latter becomes almost the same as the divided developer suggested by a Mr. Shipman back in the 1930's and revisited by Otha Spencer in Shutterbug almost twenty years ago with accolades.

So I loaded up a roll of Plus-X and went photo hunting. After shooting about half, I loaded that part into my tank and mixed up my chemicals, including a strong Kodalk stock solution for a 1:1 DK-50 soup. Four and a half minutes at 68 degrees, as I read in the Massive Development Chart, stop bath, fix. Scanned at 4800dpi, highest native, non-interpolated quality on my Canon 8800F.

Oh, my.

Where's the grain? Oh, sure, if you really blow it up, like maybe to billboard size, there it is. But if you are displaying at anything like normal print or monitor display sizes, nothing to worry about, and you get that famous DK-50 acutance. As an experiment, I also scanned it with the Canon "grain reduction" setting on Maximum, and sure enough, it smoothed it right out, what little there is. Interesting, sodium sulfite in your software! So shoot for acutance, fix grain later if needed!

Then I shot the balance of the roll. Poured in the 75 degree 2X strength D-50 stock, agitated often for 5 minutes. Poured out, poured in a pH 10.7 sodium carbonate plus some sodium sulfite solution for one minute. No agitation, just a bang on the counter to dislodge any bubbles. Poured out, rinsed with water, fixed, scanned.

Some really fine negatives........but the great ones at a fraction of the rated film speed. Certainly not what I expected or hoped for in that regard. But, a starting point for more experimentation and photochemistry fun!

For now, I’m hooked on DK-50 and D-50!
 

Gerald C Koch

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Actually DK-50 makes a very good acutance developer when diluted 1+4 with enough metaborate added to raise the concentration to that of the undiluted developer, that is 10 g/l. Development times are 8 to 13 min @ 20C.
 

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Are you using a replacement for the Kodalk (I think that's a rhetorical question)? Anyway, would you be so kind as to provide a recipe for what you did mix up? It sounds interesting.
 

Gerald C Koch

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Solutio A:

DK-50

Solution B:

Sodium metaborate 80 g
Water to make 1 liter

Take 2 parts A, 1 part B, and 7 parts water to make the working developer. From the British Journal of Photography Annual 1972, p 230,
 

Ian Grant

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Kodak DK50 is derived from the much earlier Wellington MQ Borax formula, there was probably a D50 with Borax instead of Metaborate

Wellington MQ Borax

Metol 2g
Hydroquinone 2g
Sodium Sulphite 10g
Borax 20g
Water to 1 litre

Through a few step changes which include a Borax version of DK60 this eventually evolved to D76.

Ian
 

nworth

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DK-50 has a long and glorious reputation - backed up by some of the most famous negatives ever made. I used it a quite a bit when I was in college (50+ years ago) for 4X5, but I've only used it a couple of times since. I'm glad to see you are experimenting with it. Please keep us informed about the results. DK-50 is usually diluted 1+3 for modern films. Several years ago, the British Journal published a modified DK-50 for acutance use that you may find interesting:

BJ Dilute DK-50 high sharpness developer

Solution A
Metol 2.5 g
Hydroquinone 2.5 g
Sodium sulfite, anh. 30 g
Potassium bromide 500 mg
WTM 1 l

Solution B
Sodium metaborate 50 g
WTM 1 l

Use as one-shot.
Dilute 1:1:3 (A:B:water) for use (1:1:6 for tabular grain films)
67
Variations
Replace potassium bromide with 100 mg of potassium iodide.
Replace sodium metaborate with carbonate - bicarbonate buffer (40 g sodium carbonate, 10 g sodium bicarbonate)

This is a interesting approach. It is roughly equivalent to DK-50 1 + 6 with 2.5X extra Kodalk. It has a good reputation in any case.
 

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I wonder how it would work w/ smaller formats like 35mm? It's funny, I read a lot about having to use the DK 50 diluted to get the fine grain and acutance, but it would appear that's not necessarily so from what you got. Well, you read a lot on the internet. I heard similar things about Mic-X at full strength. Mush grain they said. My results (I'm sure all this depends a lot on how you develop it, agitation protocol, what film is used etc, so there is no standard) gave me essentially grainless negs w/ 120. Perhaps not the sharpest, that's hard to judge once its printed since different papers may do different things, but excellent if you had a lot of sky in a shot. Sounds like DK 50 would be good for sky shots too.
 
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Paul Verizzo

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Are you using a replacement for the Kodalk (I think that's a rhetorical question)? Anyway, would you be so kind as to provide a recipe for what you did mix up? It sounds interesting.

Standard DK-50 recipe as found "everywhere."

Water, 125F/52C 500ml
Metol 2.5 g
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 30 g
Hydroquinone 2.5 g
Balanced Alkali 10 g
Potassium Bromide 0.5 g
Cold water to make 1L

I use sodium metaborate from a lab supply company. Kodalk.
 
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Paul Verizzo

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Kodak DK50 is derived from the much earlier Wellington MQ Borax formula, there was probably a D50 with Borax instead of Metaborate

Wellington MQ Borax

Metol 2g
Hydroquinone 2g
Sodium Sulphite 10g
Borax 20g
Water to 1 litre

Through a few step changes which include a Borax version of DK60 this eventually evolved to D76.

Ian

Interesting. Or, we could say, add more sulphite and alkali, there's DK-50. 20 g's of borax is still a rather low pH. According to Crabtree, via Haist, that would have a pH of about 6 grams of Kodalk.
 

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Wow! I mixed up a big 1 gallon dark brown jug of DK-50 about a month ago. After reading what I could find on it DK-50 sounded like something I could really get to like. I haven't played with it much, but I did use it on some 35mm PanF+ and they negatives came out just fine. I used it at 1:5 with a little longer developing time and slow agitation. I know 35mm PanF+ is NOT grain-free, but these negatives still looked very sharp with smooth grain. I'm shooting some Ultrafine Xtreme 100 in 35mm and 120 and that will go into the DK-50 soup either tonight or tomorrow sometime. I have got superb results with Ultrafine Xtreme 100 35mm in Rodinal 1:50 @70F for 8.5 minutes. There is grain, but not as bad as I thought there would be and it gave me box speed and near-perfect tonal range. So, these Rodinal+Xtreme 100 negatives will give me something to judge the DK-50 negatives by. I have a 100ft. roll of Xtreme so I should be able to nail the DK-50 combo down. Is it better than my go-to Pyrocat-MC/FX37? To be continued............................................John W
 
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Paul Verizzo

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I wonder how it would work w/ smaller formats like 35mm? It's funny, I read a lot about having to use the DK 50 diluted to get the fine grain and acutance, but it would appear that's not necessarily so from what you got. Well, you read a lot on the internet. I heard similar things about Mic-X at full strength. Mush grain they said. My results (I'm sure all this depends a lot on how you develop it, agitation protocol, what film is used etc, so there is no standard) gave me essentially grainless negs w/ 120. Perhaps not the sharpest, that's hard to judge once its printed since different papers may do different things, but excellent if you had a lot of sky in a shot. Sounds like DK 50 would be good for sky shots too.

I should have mentioned that the Plus-X I used was 35mm. Well, technically, it was Arista Premium, which we know was Plus-X.

Digital photography and printing has taught me a very important lesson: There is better and worse, and there is adequate for the purpose. Point being, for example, the print trade has long used 250-300 lines (or dots) per inch as "photo quality." If one is shooting to make an 8x10 print, you can attain that with a 3mp camera! More megapixels add nothing to the quality. In fact, your printing program will throw away all those mp's not needed for the quality you ask for it to print in!

Similarly, I'm looking at grain in the same manner. Is it subjectively obtrusive in the print I'm making or viewing? No? Then I don't care what an extreme enlargement shows. End of story.

It's quite freeing to be rid of the shackles of impossible to attain perfection.
 
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Paul Verizzo

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@nworth: Thanks for that info! See how handy my D-50 is? And as I'm going to try some TMY in the next few days, perhaps that information will help there, too.

@jw photo: Keep us posted! I just recently did some research into available B&W films that included the Ultrafine Xtreme. The question being, what is the source, to give us a mental starting point of its qualities. The observations that seemed the best thought out, of its physical and photo traits, indicate that it is Kentmere, which, in turn, is in all probability Harman/Ilford's Ilford 100 and 400 films sold into mostly competitive third world markets. Not FP4 or HP5. Older formulations, but light years ahead of the old Ultrafine films (pre-Xtreme) that were undoubtably Shanghai or other Chinese. YMMV.

@all: The only official developing strengths I've found so far are 1:1. I'm sure the old sheet films were souped at full strength, but I've not hunted those films and times down. It is obviously a quiet active developer even at 1:1. I might try further dilution with more alkali in order to use it as one shot.

Keep the great comments coming!
 

Down Under

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A message to nworth. A clarification needed, please. You wrote (quote) "Replace sodium metaborate with carbonate - bicarbonate buffer (40 g sodium carbonate, 10 g sodium bicarbonate). By this do you mean, with carbonate AND bicarbonate buffer, or with carbonate OR bicarbonate buffer? I am no chemist, but I wonder what would happen if I use the two in the one mix, instead of one or the other.

I also have played with DK50 over the years (well, decades) with mixed results (good and rotten), depending on what films I used, but haven't looked at DK50 since the late 1990s when I downgraded my darkroom to concentrate on writing and other creative projects. My notebooks from before 2000 are missing so I am somewhat lacking in info on my test experience. Having retired from my lifetime of 9-to-6 office slavery, I now have time to play again in my darkroom, and am considering new tests with D50, so this thread is a godsend. I used DK50 in the 1960s with the Kodak and Ansco films of that period. My results with 120 Verichrome Pan were truly horrible but 120 Ansco Versapan, a film I loved, gave surprisingly good grain and tonality, both films are history now, and missed. I recall 35mm processed in DK50 in the 1960s even with modifications similar to those I now read in this thread, tended toward X-ray tonality and grain like golf balls. Surely things have improved, the current T-films have given me new hope to go on with my B&W photography, even without my beloved Panatomic-X.

Paul, you have started a truly great thread. I look forward to yet more responses from other dedicated darkroom fanatics!
 

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hi paul verizzo

i have fond memories of DK50,
great stuff.
if you use it and replenish it with dk50R
( like we used to do with the deep tank and film/hangers )
don't forget to season it with a bunch of film, to tame it,
and when you have replenished your ( not sure how many films through it +
being replenished ... ) don't dump the whole jug / tank but leave 1/3 of the spent developer in there
to season the next batch ... if you switch from DK50 to harvey's777 ( bluegrass packaging 777 / defender 777 or even Caffenol C )
you can use ths replenish + leave a seasoned portion to season the next fresh developer the same way ...

have fun !
john
 
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Paul Verizzo

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@ozmoose: I think a heck of a lot of APUG'ers measure their photo history in decades. Many of them. Next week is my 69th BD, and I like to say, "I grew up in my father's darkroom." He was a professional and I have great memories of watching that magic. And looking at the nudes on the wall.

I still have the shots from my first Brownie camera that I'm sure Dad helped me through the development, ca. age five. From there, off and running!

Anyway, not so sure why your experiences were so variable with different films. Operator error? I mean, other than conventional grain vs. T-grain, almost all films behave approximately the same in a given, basic MQ developer. Start from scratch?

re Verichrome Pan: Yes, many consumer films were great films. There was nothing wrong with VP other than it wasn't "professional." Better exposure latitude, more forgiving of storage conditions. Until a few years ago Kodak made an incredible consumer color neg film, HD (High Definition) 400 in only 24 exposure rolls. The kiss of professional death. I did a piece here on APUG about it a few years ago looking at it vs. other Kodak color neg films. Truly greater acutance, grain like 100 speed Ektar 100. Gone.

@jnanian: Thanks, I've read your comments on DK-50 in other threads. I have zero interest in using it in those scenarios. One shot, or a few shots, max!
 

mdarnton

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Standard DK-50 recipe as found "everywhere."
.
Sorry---My impression was that you weren't using the standard recipe, but were using a substitute for the alkali.
 
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Paul Verizzo

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Sorry---My impression was that you weren't using the standard recipe, but were using a substitute for the alkali.

No prolemo, to coin a phrase. "Accept no substitutes," is a good starting point, always. The only thing not standard was splitting out the alkali and doubling the remaining developer components. However, once diluted and mixed, standard Dk-50. Or, dilute further, as I did.
 

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@jnanian: Thanks, I've read your comments on DK-50 in other threads. I have zero interest in using it in those scenarios. One shot, or a few shots, max!

good luck with that, from what i have been told by
very competitant photographers, much more competitant
and knowledgeable than i, untamed the developer is kind of ... contrasty :wink:
 
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Paul Verizzo

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good luck with that, from what i have been told by
very competitant photographers, much more competitant
and knowledgeable than i, untamed the developer is kind of ... contrasty :wink:

First, you describe a process using it at full strength. I have only found a few development times and they are all at 1:1 dilution.

Second, I believe in empirical results, not what people say. As I've spent decades in photo magazines, books, and now forums, I've come to realize that huge amounts of common knowledge is just mythology perpetuated. Even a lot of developer formulas have never been tested! Just someone making something up, and when I look at some of these weighed against my 25 years as an amateur photochemist I know that they are way wide of whatever marks they claim to hit.

I've gotten the results I want, or almost so, first time out of the chute.
 

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First, you describe a process using it at full strength. I have only found a few development times and they are all at 1:1 dilution.

Second, I believe in empirical results, not what people say. As I've spent decades in photo magazines, books, and now forums, I've come to realize that huge amounts of common knowledge is just mythology perpetuated. Even a lot of developer formulas have never been tested! Just someone making something up, and when I look at some of these weighed against my 25 years as an amateur photochemist I know that they are way wide of whatever marks they claim to hit.

I've gotten the results I want, or almost so, first time out of the chute.


i couldn't agree more with you about photographic mythology, i have also found that most of the advice given
on the internet to be BS just people with very little experience who like to read and regurgitate what someone else said
in either a magazine or the webosphere/blogasphere ... i am not a photochemist nor do i suggest i am one, forgive me for
perpetuating what might have been an untruth + myth, unfortunately i suggested / offered you "good luck" seeing
i had heard that it can be active + contrasty, i did not mean to disinform you or perpetuate myths. i have read that often
about dk-50, and often times when i read that i mention that when seasoned the contrast is not off the charts ( as i said to you), tame enough
that portrait photographers used to use it &c ... sorry you took offense at my passing on information that i believed was true ( and knew to be true )

i certainly am not photochemist, and i don't suggest to people that i am.
to be hoenst, i don't tell people i am an expert in anything. i learn new things daily.
i just have had a varied and interesting career doing professional photographic work,
i have assisted some local legends, and seen and made photographs of a variety of interesting subjects,
people and places a lot of regular people don't have access to.
before going out on my own, i used to be a portrait photo studio's lab guy + assistant . the lady i worked for 25+ years ago was trained in the great depression
and had a portrait studio for 50+ years. i did what i was told, and learned an awful lot. i can only speak of my personal experiences using DK50..
i don't remember if it was full strength or dilute, and i never said what the dilution was because i don't remember. maybe it was as you suggested full strength, maybe not ...
( and i don't feel comfortable agreeing with you that it was full strength ) i do remember her telling me to leave 1/2 of the tank and a packet is all i needed to mix to re-invigorate the developer. these were 3 gallon tanks. it's been almost 30 years since i worked with her, and she died maybe 10-15 years ago so i can't even ask.
when i used it 1 shot in a small ss tank to process sheet film and hand tanks for roll film, i didn't replenish, and again,i have no recollection if i diluted it or used it full strength.
kodak's professional division might have suggested i dilute it, and gave me starting points for development. again, no idea, i only used it for a few gallons
and got bored using it. instead i used few other things, and i was on my own seeing the only info i got on what i decided to use was 2nd hand or 3rd hand nformation at best,
because i was doing things most people didn't do. ...

i hope you find DK50 to work well for you as a developer.

john
 
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Paul Verizzo

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@jnanian: OK, all is well. I did take it as a "can't do that" message. Yes, tank developing is a whole different breed of chemistry, and yes, most labs kept some of the old when adding new. I think part of the reason was starting with a higher bromide level, but I'm sure there was more to it than that.
 

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@jnanian: OK, all is well. I did take it as a "can't do that" message. Yes, tank developing is a whole different breed of chemistry, and yes, most labs kept some of the old when adding new. I think part of the reason was starting with a higher bromide level, but I'm sure there was more to it than that.

:wink:
i would NEVER say you can't do that ... because i have done ( and still do ) a lot of things
i have been told i can't ( or shouldn't ) do .. ( and i found all the people who told me not to, to be wrong )

as long as you are having a good time, that is what matters,
if it isn't fun, ... move on ..

john
 
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Down Under

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Thanks, nworth. My original query was...

A clarification needed, please. You wrote (quote) "Replace sodium metaborate with carbonate - bicarbonate buffer (40 g sodium carbonate, 10 g sodium bicarbonate). By this do you mean, with carbonate AND bicarbonate buffer, or with carbonate OR bicarbonate buffer? I am no chemist, but I wonder what would happen if I use the two in the one mix, instead of one or the other.

So is it AND or OR? Important, I think. It's the keypoint to my next time experiments with DK50. Already have the developer, several packets of it in fact.

Verichrome was good stuff. Does anyone remember Versapan? Was I the only one using it? I shot weddings with it in the early 60s, a time when people were happy with B&W albums, before Kodacolor wedding shoots became the norm in my REA of rural eastern Canada. Beautiful tones. Ansco (aka GAF) and DuPont made gorgeous films back then. Ditto Panatomic from Kodak. Tmax 100 is as good if not better, in grain terms, but doesn't quite get the tonality I got with Panatomic and Agfa Rodinal Special, til both were sadly disconnected.

Lots of great information coming out of this thread, long may it run. Thanks, everyone!
 

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Very interesting thread, which would be even more interesting with a few attached photos to illustrate?
 
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Paul Verizzo

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Thanks, nworth. My original query was...

A clarification needed, please. You wrote (quote) "Replace sodium metaborate with carbonate - bicarbonate buffer (40 g sodium carbonate, 10 g sodium bicarbonate). By this do you mean, with carbonate AND bicarbonate buffer, or with carbonate OR bicarbonate buffer? I am no chemist, but I wonder what would happen if I use the two in the one mix, instead of one or the other.

So is it AND or OR? Important, I think. It's the keypoint to my next time experiments with DK50. Already have the developer, several packets of it in fact.

Verichrome was good stuff. Does anyone remember Versapan? Was I the only one using it? I shot weddings with it in the early 60s, a time when people were happy with B&W albums, before Kodacolor wedding shoots became the norm in my REA of rural eastern Canada. Beautiful tones. Ansco (aka GAF) and DuPont made gorgeous films back then. Ditto Panatomic from Kodak. Tmax 100 is as good if not better, in grain terms, but doesn't quite get the tonality I got with Panatomic and Agfa Rodinal Special, til both were sadly disconnected.

Lots of great information coming out of this thread, long may it run. Thanks, everyone!

If you have pre-made commercial DK-50, don't do anything other that use it. I think the comments about carbonate and bicarb may have been an incorrect effort to make sodium metaborate from more common materials. Repeat, I think.

Versapan isn't on my historical radar at all!
 
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