Diving into the MF world! Searching for my first camera

[youneedcoffee]

Hi everyone,

After getting in 35mm I'd love to give MF a go! I wanted to try a TLR as they look beautiful

I am currently looking at/for:

• Lower end Rolleiflex (have not found one yet)
• Rolleicord (untested early one $75-100 and a later iv $280)
• Untested Zeiss Ikoflex (I've seen some mixed reviews $120)
• Mamiya C220 (ground glass has some dust/marks $320)
• Mamiya 330 (have not found one yet)

Part of me is also interested in:

• Fuji GW690 (have not found one yet)
• Mamiya RB67 (checking a couple out )

Is there any others I should look into?

I always ask about the

• Focusing screen brightness/marks
• Lens fungus/scratch/coating/dust
• If it has had a CLA

Any other questions I should be asking? I'd like something working with the lenses/screen in good condition.

Thanks so much!

 

[Theo Sulphate]

What type of photography will you be doing? You've listed TLR's, a rangefinder, and an SLR - all of which differ quite a bit in weight, size, handling, and things like the ability (or not) to change lenses and backs. It depends on what's important to you in a camera.

 

[youneedcoffee]

What type of photography will you be doing? You've listed TLR's, a rangefinder, and an SLR - all of which differ quite a bit in weight, size, handling, and things like the ability (or not) to change lenses and backs. It depends on what's important to you in a camera.

Ah sorry!

I usually take pics while I travel, mostly of my friends and family but sometimes also the environment. That said, I would like to try a bit of everything at some point if it's a good deal. Thanks for replying!

 

[Dan Daniel]

What type of photography will you be doing? You've listed TLR's, a rangefinder, and an SLR - all of which differ quite a bit in weight, size, handling, and things like the ability (or not) to change lenses and backs. It depends on what's important to you in a camera.

THIS^^^^^ Tell more about what you want to do. Why medium format. What to shoot. Time frame to buy and your general habits with camera (gear slut, lifetime marriage, serial monogamy?).

The odds are that the first medium format camera you get will not be your last. There is more variance than in 35mm cameras- 6x4.5 SLRs with grips that are not much bigger than a pro-level Canon or Nikon 35mm. Both TLRs and 6x6 SLRs like a Hasselblad with waist level finder are unique, and a Rolleiflex is very different than a Mamiya. Rangefinders and autocofocus with rangefinder-like viewfinders. VIew cameras like the Horseman and Linhofs. Holgas. On and on.

You'll get lots of information here. At some point, just buy something and start shooting.

EDIT: Seeing your reply, two coments on your original list. Mamiya TLRs and the RB/RZ cameras are big. Not really travel cameras. People do it, but mostly pros who are focused on photography.

Look at the Fuji 6x4.5 cameras. Might give you what you want.

 

[youneedcoffee]

Tell more about what you want to do. Why medium format. What to shoot. Time frame to buy and your general habits with camera (gear slut, lifetime marriage, serial monogamy?).

More great questions! I have not really thought about this.

• Why MF? Mostly that it is something new, technical and interesting to me. Also the great IQ.
• What to shoot? People/travel
  
• Time frame? No rush but ready whenever
• Camera habits? I have a lot of 35mm cameras and don't sell much. I just really like the feeling of trying a new camera and seeing how it turns out.
• My fav cameras I have are: Nikon FE2, Minolta Maxxum 5, Nikon One Touch AF2 and Leica z2x.

Thanks

 

[KN4SMF]

I've had my share of MF cameras. But I wouldn't take a dollar and a quarter for my Moskva 4.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Let me just go through all the cameras you're thinking about and share my thoughts on them:

• Lower end Rolleiflex: Not worth it. I assume you mean a Tessar or Xenar Rolleiflex. Not worth it because it will be heavier, bigger, and less reliable than the Rolleicord. If you're thinking a low-end Planar or Xenotar Rolleiflex, forget it because they're too expensive. I'd budget $500 for the camera and $200 to make it work.
• Rolleicord: Great idea, one of my favorite cameras ever. I have a Rolleicord III and the Xenar is a great lens. I'd suggest getting one that is tested, but for that you shouldn't have to pay much more than $200. As long as all shutter speeds are working, you shouldn't need a CLA because this camera is incredibly simple. Of course, a CLA'd camera is great too. I would suggest looking at an Autocord also, the lens I had one mine is almost as good as the Xenar. Consider spending $300 for a CLA'd Autocord from Karl Bryan who usually has some for sale and is "the guy" for Autocords.
  
• Ikoflex: Never had one but always wanted one.
  
• C220: Great camera, has some plusses and minuses compared to the Rolleicord. Plus is a brighter screen and interchangeable lenses. It probably has a better standard lens than the Rolleicord. Minus is heavier weight and bigger size. $320 is way too much to pay for one. There's a body in VG shape for $100 at Used Photo Pro right now and all three standard-ish lenses (65, 80, 105) go for around $100 in great shape, and you would even get to pick what focal length you want to start with. Only extra part you would need would be a finder, which goes for $30-$50.
  
• C330: Brighter screen than the C220, some cool features. Auto-cocking is the most important one, and it should be important to you if you care about shooting speed. It shouldn't be, if you don't. Parralax correction bar is in my opinion a bit overrated, because it doesn't come into effect until you start considering macro.
  
• One tip on the C220 and C330 is that the condition of the outer bellows doesn't matter because there is an interior bellows that protects the taking lens. You can often get screaming deals on cameras with tattered exterior bellows. I got my C330 for $30 and my C220 for $40 because of this!
• GW690: I've never used one myself but have been tempted. The weight and size have been keeping me away. I think you should try a format with ground glass, preferably with waist level viewing before going to a rangefinder.
  
• RB67: Perhaps the best deal on the medium format market right now if looking at image quality to price ratio. I've never used one myself because the weight is just silly and I got into Hasselblads instead. It would make a good pair with the Rolleicord. If I were starting again I'd probably get an RB67 and a Rolleicord and be happy with it. Instead I've ended up with a Hasselblad and a C220/C330 and a Rolleicord, which I'm happy with but I feel like I've spent more money than I needed to.
• If you go down the rabbit hole of cheap ($100) TLRs, you may have to swing (i.e. buy and re-sell on eBay) a few times before you get a hit. There is a lot of sample variation in the lenses for these. I went through a Yashica LM, Yashica-Mat LM, Autocord and a Yashica D before I settled on the Rolleicord. I am happy I sold the Yashica LM and Yashica D, but I regret selling the Autocord. I'm sure there great Yashicas out there and terrible Rolleircords, this is just the order it happened for me.

So in summary and in general:
Best image quality for the money: RB67
Best image quality for the weight: Rolleiflex 3.5 Planar
Best image quality for the money and for the weight: C220 and Rolleicord tie

 

[youneedcoffee]

This is so helpful, thank you!

 

[guangong]

Looking at you list of cameras, my only advice ( while being a Zeiss enthusiast ), is to avoid Ikoflex because of questionable reliability. Interesting design and interesting for collectors, but not so much for users. As for TLR, others were trying to play catch-up with Rolleiflex but never caught up.
As others have said, try any of the cameras for a while and see what sticks. If you decide on a Rolleiflex, save up until you can buy a quality camera in good order.

 

[Paul Howell]

For travel a folder, something that is compact, has a good lens, there are lots of options my Fav is the 50's vintage Mamiya 6, need to make sure bellows are good. Second a fixed lens TLR, Rollei's are good as are Yashica 124s, and Minolta autoflex, get one that has been serviced. Mamiya 220 and 330 are heavy, great if you want interchangeable lens. I would also consider a 645, came in both SLR and a few rangefinders, lighter than a RB, nice selection of lens. Still outside the box, Baby Speed or Crown, 6X9 negative, rugged, folds up easy to fit into a camera bag. I have TLRs, Rangefinder and SLR MF bodies and lens. For travel I find myself stuffing a Yaschia D (the model with the 4 element lens, it has a 2.8 viewing lens, bright focusing screen. My other favorite is a Kodak Tourister, the one with 4 element lens, shutter speeds to 1/400 of a second. Only down side is respooling 120 film on 620 spools. Although guesstimate focusing, I shoot landscapes at infinity so not much of an issue. If you have really deep pockets a late model Mamyia 6 or 7.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

For travel a folder, something that is compact, has a good lens, there are lots of options my Fav is the 50's vintage Mamiya 6, need to make sure bellows are good. Second a fixed lens TLR, Rollei's are good as are Yashica 124s, and Minolta autoflex, get one that has been serviced. Mamiya 220 and 330 are heavy, great if you want interchangeable lens. I would also consider a 645, came in both SLR and a few rangefinders, lighter than a RB, nice selection of lens. Still outside the box, Baby Speed or Crown, 6X9 negative, rugged, folds up easy to fit into a camera bag. I have TLRs, Rangefinder and SLR MF bodies and lens. For travel I find myself stuffing a Yaschia D (the model with the 4 element lens, it has a 2.8 viewing lens, bright focusing screen. My other favorite is a Kodak Tourister, the one with 4 element lens, shutter speeds to 1/400 of a second. Only down side is respooling 120 film on 620 spools. Although guesstimate focusing, I shoot landscapes at infinity so not much of an issue. If you have really deep pockets a late model Mamyia 6 or 7.

Yashica D with the 4 element lens was the exact one I was disappointed with. For whatever reason my results were always just kind of lame, and I really wanted to love the camera because it's so light weight, small and easy to focus.

I love the idea of folders but have always been disappointed in the results. I have played with a Voigtlander Perkeo / Color Skopar and it uses scale focus. I may have to get a rangefinder and revisit the camera because the idea of a medium format pocket camera is oh-so-enticing.

 

[johnha]

As mentioned you'll probably end up with one or more of each TLR, SLR, RF etc... I'd suggest starting with a 6x4.5 SLR with a prism or 6x6 SLR (with or without a prism) as they're compact, versatile and there are various options. For travel I feel a prism is more practical than a WLF.

Fuji 6x4.5 rangefinders have always appealed to me but very hard to find in the UK (and are probably too 'electronic' for me), GL690 is much bigger & heavier than it looks.

My preference is a Pentax 6x7 but it's an aging, heavy lump and they're harder to find at reasonable prices.

 

[John51]

Ah sorry!

I usually take pics while I travel, mostly of my friends and family but sometimes also the environment. That said, I would like to try a bit of everything at some point if it's a good deal. Thanks for replying!

The best camera is always the one you have with you. Much as I love my Kodak Medalist, I don't use it for travel apart from an occasional day trip. Too much hassle and too heavy to ignore the weight hanging around my neck. fwir, the Fuji 6x9s are heavier than the Medalist but look to be better handling.

For a mf travel camera, I went for a Super Fujica 6. It's the Japanese version of the Agfa Super Isollette only less expensive. For one in excellent condition, I paid half of what untested Super Isollettes can go for. About as good as it gets for a 6x6 folder imo. Coupled rangefinder, unit focusing 5 element lens, no red window and lighter than many other folders.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hi everyone,

After getting in 35mm I'd love to give MF a go! I wanted to try a TLR as they look beautiful

I am currently looking at/for:

• Lower end Rolleiflex (have not found one yet)
• Rolleicord (untested early one $75-100 and a later iv $280)
• Untested Zeiss Ikoflex (I've seen some mixed reviews $120)
• Mamiya C220 (ground glass has some dust/marks $320)
• Mamiya 330 (have not found one yet)

Part of me is also interested in:

• Fuji GW690 (have not found one yet)
• Mamiya RB67 (checking a couple out )

Is there any others I should look into?

I always ask about the

• Focusing screen brightness/marks
• Lens fungus/scratch/coating/dust
• If it has had a CLA

Any other questions I should be asking? I'd like something working with the lenses/screen in good condition.

Thanks so much!

as someone said elsewhere: make your first camera your last and get a used Hasselblad!

 

[Black Dog]

I have a Rolleicord and a Mamiya C330. The Rolleicord is quite light and compact compared to the C330 but no interchangeable lenses and the viewfinder is a bit of a cave as well. However, it's much more convenient to carry around all day, plus they're much cheaper than Rolleiflexes. Rangefinders are smaller and more compact than SLRs, but Ihe Bronica RF645 mamiya 6 and Mamiya 7 are the only ones I can think of with interchangeable lenses. The SLR wins hands down if you like closeups though. I'd personally pick a rangefinder for street photography and hiking ( I do lots of both). Think carefully about what pictures you currently do and what you might like to do in the future. I'm thinking about a Fuji GSW690, but they're not for people with small hands!

 

[DWThomas]

I've concluded there is almost a continuum in the range of available medium format cameras and none are likely to be the "perfect choice." For me, at least, it depends a lot on where I'm going -- and even who I'm with -- working with a fiddly sort of camera while traveling with family or a small group is a lot different that going out solo or with another photographer (at least for me). It also varies with the type of travel -- private vehicle or public transportation, self guided or tour guide led, etc.

My first MF acquisition was a Bronica SQ-A with 80mm ("normal") lens and WLF. That was an inspiration after I got home from a trip that visited Pompeii and Ercolano and I had these mental flashes of exhibition size B&W prints featuring abstract details of eroded masonry, etc. But truth be told, that's some hefty gear to haul around on an overseas expedition! Just to be covered, I have added about four lenses, three backs, and 90º and 45º prism finders to that collection. I have carted some of it around the northeastern US on treks where I can work out of my car parked nearby.

So then I got a Perkeo II, a 6x6 folder with the Color Skopar lens. That's a pretty nifty unit which folds quite compactly. It's still a surprising amount of weight for its compact size, as in the early 1950s they were still making cameras out of metal and glass -- who'd have thought! I've taken some very satisfying shots with it, even gotten an award or two in local shows. The cons: fiddly, stuff at end of bellows obscures one corner of the viewfinder, which in itself is a bit small and "squinty," no rangefinder.

So then I added an Ercona II -- more film real estate, a 6x9 folder with 105mm f/3.5 Carl Zeiss Jena lens. It's awesome to look at and does some pretty decent work. Cons: also fiddly, eats film -- only 8 shots on a roll -- no rangefinder. Though I find I usually do pretty well with estimating distance (my problem is just forgetting to focus at all!)

So then (see a pattern here?!) I acquired a Yashica Mat 124G TLR. I have been pretty pleased with what I've gotten out of that. It's not exactly small and inconspicuous, but the weight is not too bad. A year and a half back the shutter release button seemed sluggish popping out after taking a shot (though it still worked) and I actually felt justified in sending it to Mark Hama for a CLA which even resulted in the meter now working on a non-Hg battery. Cons: it's still a bunch of bulk compared with my Canon G15 and more recently acquired Canon EOS M5! That said, it has become my goto when I'm serious but not full backpack serious. It also provokes kindly reactions from bystanders, and looking downward into a quite nice WLF can permit some surreptitious shooting. I just took it on a Rhine river cruise with some private pre-cruise extensions, but frankly got tired of carrying it in the more regimented portions of the trip -- ah well! (Guess I'm jut not dedicated enough ...)

Now I admit I've been looking longingly at those Fuji Gxxx rangefinders, but haven't yet acted on the G.A.S.! Maybe I will, maybe I won't, maybe I should do more with what I already own!

All of the above, with links to some sample work are out on my PBase galleries, FWIW. There are some in my gallery here also.

So there's my rambling 1.6 (after tax) cents.

 

[KN4SMF]

I had a Medalist II with a worn out shutter escapement. I worked and worked trying to get that shutter to act right. Finally came to the conclusion the shutter was a piece of crap. Total letdown. All that fine glass and rangefinder and everything else, but with a shutter that belonged on toy camera. Got rid of it and got a Mockba 4 and have been happy as a clam ever since. Not a fan of folding cameras because bellows are a weak point. So I just don't fold it up.

 

[Luckless]

I really like my Rolleicord, wonderful, light, compact [compared to my C330 at least], and easy to use.

But there are two main flaws with the model I have:
- Doesn't appear to have a way to lock or decock the shutter once readied, so has a risk of a nice shot of the inside of my bag if my photo gets away before I actually snap the shutter.
- A frustratingly long minimum focus distance.

However much of my opinion on those issues is probably heavily flavoured by having owned and used a Mamiya C330 before picking up the Rolleicord.
The 250mm lens is long enough for some close birding, both the 180 and 80mm lenses are gorgeous and great to work with, and I hear good things about the other lenses that I haven't gotten my hands on. [They're also not bad to open up and tinker with if you like clock work and are brave/dump enough to do your own stuff...] And I really like the functionality of being able to 'lock down' the camera with the internal darkslide. [Dark-flap? Whatever. I can turn a knob and the camera film can't get exposed even if the shutter on the lens is tripped.]

But,...

They're heavier and a lot bulkier than the Rolleicord...

Scale focus folders are also super fun to use for me. Haven't gotten around to developing any of the rolls I've put through the few I do own now, but so far I've greatly enjoyed trying to take photos with them, and I look forward to seeing if I actually enjoy the photos that come out of it or not.

In all honesty I would suggest poking around local camera shops if you have any, and see if anyone has a medium format that is in working order. After all the ones I've handled and owned I figure that they all have great points and annoying flaws, many of which would be more or less important to different photographers, so you may as well try to get your hands on as many as you can before settling on what you really like.

But TLRs and scale focus/range finders are clearly the far superior option. No silly mirror flapping away...

 

[Sirius Glass]

Rolleis are lighter than Mamiyas and have superb optics. The drawback is that they do not have interchangeable backs nor interchangeable lenses.
Mamiya Cxxx have good optics and interchangeable lenses. Additionally the built in bellows provides great macro photography capability when coupled with a Paraminder [good investment]. No interchangeable backs.
Interchangeable backs allows one to change film midroll for various reasons [black & white to color and back, different film speeds, different processing for a form of the Zone System]. I do that quite often. Some SLRs have interchangeable backs.

Everyone will give their opinion but in the end the only option that matters is how does the camera feel in your hands and can you become one with that camera.

 

[Paul Howell]

Now I admit I've been looking longingly at those Fuji Gxxx rangefinders, but haven't yet acted on the G.A.S.! Maybe I will, maybe I won't, maybe I should do more with what I already own!
A much less pricey alternative to a Fuji is a Mamiya Press or Universal. Interchangeable lens, backs, but lack built in meter. Might be a tad heaver than a Fuji, very rugged cameras. Only real draw back is having to cock the shutter. If you have a strong back and large case you can travel with one. Press photographers lugged them around, then became a fav or wedding shooters. I have a Mamiya, when traveling by car I will take it, but not when flying.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Now I admit I've been looking longingly at those Fuji Gxxx rangefinders, but haven't yet acted on the G.A.S.! Maybe I will, maybe I won't, maybe I should do more with what I already own!
A much less pricey alternative to a Fuji is a Mamiya Press or Universal. Interchangeable lens, backs, but lack built in meter. Might be a tad heaver than a Fuji, very rugged cameras. Only real draw back is having to cock the shutter. If you have a strong back and large case you can travel with one. Press photographers lugged them around, then became a fav or wedding shooters. I have a Mamiya, when traveling by car I will take it, but not when flying.

Most cameras in some way one must cock the shutter. The requirement to cock the shutter should not stop one from buying a camera.

 

[runswithsizzers]

If by "travel" you mean a few days vacation with your family, and a tight itinerary, I think medium format would not be a good choice, at all. Aside from the pain and suffering that goes with carrying a big, heavy camera, medium format photography is inherently slower than 35mm. If your fellow travelers are rolling their eyes and tapping their toes while you are fiddling around with a light meter, reversed-image waist-level finder, and, heaven forbid, a tripod, things could get tense. Even changing film takes more time than you are used to, and you must reload every 8-15 shots.

On the other hand, if you are going to check into a room for a week or two, and you will have half-a-day here and there to photograph without obligation to family and no check-in times hanging over your head, then go for it!

Personally, I like to walk a lot while traveling, and I would not want to carry anything bigger than 645, or possibly, a folding 6x6 - but how much one is willing to suffer for their art is something everyone must decide for themselves.

 

[KN4SMF]

Like I've said before. You can get a Moskva for peanuts and join the happy club of 6x9. A Zeiss Ikon for the price of pocket change. Will outshoot a Hasselblad 5 to 1. And it weighs as much as a small bag of feathers.

 

[Sirius Glass]

If by "travel" you mean a few days vacation with your family, and a tight itinerary, I think medium format would not be a good choice, at all. Aside from the pain and suffering that goes with carrying a big, heavy camera, medium format photography is inherently slower than 35mm. If your fellow travelers are rolling their eyes and tapping their toes while you are fiddling around with a light meter, reversed-image waist-level finder, and, heaven forbid, a tripod, things could get tense. Even changing film takes more time than you are used to, and you must reload every 8-15 shots.

On the other hand, if you are going to check into a room for a week or two, and you will have half-a-day here and there to photograph without obligation to family and no check-in times hanging over your head, then go for it!

Personally, I like to walk a lot while traveling, and I would not want to carry anything bigger than 645, or possibly, a folding 6x6 - but how much one is willing to suffer for their art is something everyone must decide for themselves.

Speak for yourself. I take my Hasselblad and lenses all the world traveling. Sometimes I take a tripod. It does not slow me down taking photographs. And my family encourages my photography. I take 6x6 negatives, never 645. And I am not the only one at Photrio that takes MF cameras on vacations. Heck many take LF.

 

[removed account4]

What kind of money do you have ? do you need a flash socket / pc plug ?
old rolliecords 1a with triotar lenses are just magical, they are from the 1930s
so like with all used gear you might or most likely will have to include the cost of
a C L A in the price of the camera.
if you have a few hunddred dollars and like eastern block and russian glass get a
breech mount keiv 60 or a top notch refllocked rebuilt resurected ARAX 60
the eastern block and russian glass is also magical,doesn't really cost much and
is worth more than the price of admission. you won't have a crick in your neck like the TLR
and its kind of big and clunky but you won't be sorry.
good luck !
John