Divided Pyrocat HD?

bags27

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An oldie, but a goodie, but I haven't seen it much discussed lately.

Long time and happy user of Pyrocat HD at 1:1:100, I tried it divided for the first time yesterday at the usual formula: 75 deg F, 10:10:100, 5 minutes for both A&B: 1 minute agitation and then 10 seconds each additional minute.

Did 6 rolls of 120, which is all I had. This was with a Mamiya 7 80mm Tri-X, heavily cropped. In B&W Mamiya glass can render very sharp and contrasty (sometimes too much for my taste), but I think this developer/method manages that nicely.

Of course 10:10:100 turns an inexpensive developer into a very expensive one (I buy pre-mixed as I won't mix these chemicals myself). I'm also playing around with Barry Thornton's 2-bath, but need more experience with it.

Does anyone use Pyrocat HD divided with smaller amounts of developer? Wondering if it works as well.... Only one way to find out, I guess.

thanks!

 
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bags27

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Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
If you use weaker dilutions than what Sandy King recommends for Divided Pyrocat-HD, you'll get underdeveloped negatives.
Click to expand...

That's my assumption, too. Just don't know if any other variable--time, agitation, temperature--or combination of them can be increased to offset a weakened solution.

I don't know the chemistry at all. But with all undivided developers, increasing one or more of those variables can offset increased dilution.

Just wondering if anyone's tried it.
 

Raghu Kuvempunagar

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None of those will help much unfortunately. In Divided Pyrocat, no development takes place in the first bath. All the development takes place in the second bath and the concentration of Part A plays a critical role in controlling the development that happens in Part B. A roll of film can absorb only so much developer in the first bath. Extending the first bath time beyond certain minimum time doesn't help much. If the absorbed developer is already dilute, there is not much the second bath can do to alleviate the problem.
 
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bags27

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Thanks to you both for taking the time. I had just assumed 1+10 was pretty firm chemistry, too.

But googling, it seems that when doing hybrid work King was also trying 1+20 without changing any of the other variables. Of course, best if I test both with a cut strip.

Since the ability of the film to absorb reducer is the primary determinant of the final contrast of a film developed in a two-bath developer like Pyrocat it should be expected that unless some adjustment are made the final CI of different films will be slightly different. However, since this work-flow is based on scanning and then adjusting the tonal range in Photoshop these small differences in CI are basically unimportant for all practical purposes.

Figure A, below, illustrates how several films respond to the same type of development. In this example all of the films were developed for 5+5 minutes in Pyrocat-HD at 75º F, with a dilution of 1+20.

This entire report is extremely helpful:

Two Bath Pyrocat HD Film Developer

In the article published in View Camera I reviewed the use of D23 and Diafine in two-bath use. Shortly after the article came out I began experimenting with
www.pyrocathd.5x4.co.uk
 
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Raghu Kuvempunagar

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Test it with a small strip and see if you get results you like.

Is there a reason why you prefer Divided Pyrocat over the regular development with Pyrocat-HD 1:100 dilution? The advantages are marginal if any.
 
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bags27

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Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Test it with a small strip and see if you get results you like.

Is there a reason why you prefer Divided Pyrocat over the regular development with Pyrocat-HD 1:100 dilution? The advantages are marginal if any.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I intend to do that.

As to preference, I don't know until I try. I thought that the divided I did use "tamed" my Mamiya 7 glass better, but of course that's completely subjective. Sandy King--a superb photographer--continued to investigate divided Pyrocat and so that stimulated my interest.

But certainly, it's both more expensive and more work (fun?).
 
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bags27

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Sirius Glass said:
That is the dilution that many have directed me to for divided development.
Click to expand...

Thanks. And that's what I've used, too.

I'm guessing that a couple of things happened since Sandy King first proposed that ratio. 1. It proved expensive, especially to those of us who don't want to mix pyro chemicals ourselves. 2. It was originally intended for wet printing and pretty explicitly the link I included above is for hybrid work, where contrast is more easily controlled in post-processing.
 

Sirius Glass

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I only use pyro for film. I do not know about its use with paper.
 
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bags27

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Sirius Glass said:
I only use pyro for film. I do not know about its use with paper.
Click to expand...

Sorry. My ambiguity. I meant using the Pyrocat-developed negative to produce an image on paper. Using it to produce an image for digital viewing will allow for more contrast control, at least that's King's supposition in that report I linked.
 
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bags27

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Thanks, I will. Have to save up enough film to make it worthwhile.

As I said in my first post, I've not been completely happy with the way the Mamiya 7 renders, with whatever developer I've used, most recently and longest and closest to "happy" with Pyrocat 1:1:100. (Someone I know has gone back to D-76 for his Mamiya 6, as he thinks it helps soften the image a bit.)

But what I posted at the top is a slice of a photo developed in 10+, and, for my personal taste, it gets me where I want to be. So, for me, it does make a bit of a difference.

More tests to follow, and thanks for your insights.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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With HP5, I had best results at 1+20. I only use divided when I want extreme contraction. 6:00 in each bath. Bath A has several drops of Photo-flo added. I agitate every 30 sec in A. Vigorously, and continuously in bath B.
 
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bags27

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Andrew O'Neill said:
With HP5, I had best results at 1+20. I only use divided when I want extreme contraction. 6:00 in each bath. Bath A has several drops of Photo-flo added. I agitate every 30 sec in A. Vigorously, and continuously in bath B.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much, Andrew. Very encouraging about 1+20. Constant agitation in B makes sense to me with the diluted developer.

I use Photo-flo too, as suggested by Sandy King.

Sorry, I don't know what "extreme contraction" is.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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bags27 said:
Thanks so much, Andrew. Very encouraging about 1+20. Constant agitation in B makes sense to me with the diluted developer.

I use Photo-flo too, as suggested by Sandy King.

Sorry, I don't know what "extreme contraction" is.
Click to expand...

Contraction is reducing the development time, when you want to control a contrasty scene. You want to contract the high values so that they fit and are easier to print. The opposite is expansion... Mainly terms used with Zone System practitioners. Just think "push and pull" (although push is generally used to get more speed out of a film). I don't think push would work very well with divided development, as film really does need that little extra exposure in order to work well.
 

Raghu Kuvempunagar

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Andrew O'Neill said:
With HP5, I had best results at 1+20. I only use divided when I want extreme contraction. 6:00 in each bath. Bath A has several drops of Photo-flo added. I agitate every 30 sec in A. Vigorously, and continuously in bath B.
Click to expand...

Have you tried developing in Pyrocat-HD 1:100 like you normally do but for 50-75% of the prescribed development time and continuing the rest of the development in water (or alkaline water)? Is there anything 1+20 divided development offers over this pretty simple two step waterbath development method?
 
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bags27

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King lists 3 ways to control contrast in descending order of efficacy:

1) Increase or decrease the concentration of working solutions A and B. Using a weaker dilution decreases final contrast, a strong dilution increases contrast. For example, a 1+10 dilution will give negatives with higher contrast than a 1 + 20 dilution, all other things being equal.

2) Increase development time in working solutions A and B. Longer development times will increase the contrast of the negative, to a certain point.

3) Decrease or increase the temperature of working solutions A and B. Increasing the temperature will allow the gelatin to swell more, thus increasing its ability to imbibe reducer, and increasing slightly final negative contrast.
 

john_s

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bags27 said:
........... I thought that the divided I did use "tamed" my Mamiya 7 glass better, but of course that's completely subjective.
Click to expand...

Is the problem too much overall contrast or conspicuous edge effects? If the former, less development as suggested by

Raghu Kuvempunagar​

(sorry about the formatting- cut and pasted)

or if the latter, maybe a developer that gives softer outlines (most other developers).
 
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bags27

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Thanks, John. A little of both, actually. Yes, softer outlines are desired. Someone I know who feels the same about his Mamiya 6 glass has gone back to d-76 for it. Perhaps I will, though I'm so reluctant to give up on Pyrocat HD which, for many reasons, I'm a fan of. Anyway, all good fun!
 
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