Disposing of used Pyro

[jstraw]

Thanks for finding that Tom. I wasn't successful in finding any documents searching Kodak's site. I didn't see anything in the document at that link you included about disposal. My concern is not limited to human exposure.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Thanks for finding that Tom. I wasn't successful in finding any documents searching Kodak's site. I didn't see anything in the document at that link you included about disposal. My concern is not limited to human exposure.

Jack, the main concern with a septic system is with silver and other heavy metals that can poison the decomposition processes. So, spent fixers, etc. should be saved and recycled.

The septic tank concern with the phenol developing chemicals like pyro, catechol, hydroquinone, amidol,etc (plus tea and coffee) is that there may be insufficient oxygen available in the (anerobic) septic tank system to break these phenols down.

You can safely recycle the water component of the spent developer by evaporation. Shake the spent developer up well to mix plenty of oxygen into it. Then pour it into a container with a screen or mesh cover (so nothing can get into it). Set the container out in the sun and let all the water evaporate (it shouldn't take more than a few days). A very small amount of dry organic residue will be left behind. When a sufficient amount of residue accumulates it can be taken to a waste disposal site.

 

[mikebarger]

Who would have guessed after developing a little Tri-X you could use 510 Pyro to keep the gray away before pouring it down the drain.

Mike

 

[avandesande]

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/documents/7e/0900688a802e3e7e/KES110ENG.pdf

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=2879/4191/4197&pq-locale=en_US

 

[jstraw]

Jack, the main concern with a septic system is with silver and other heavy metals that can poison the decomposition processes. So, spent fixers, etc. should be saved and recycled.

The septic tank concern with the phenol developing chemicals like pyro, catechol, hydroquinone, amidol,etc (plus tea and coffee) is that there may be insufficient oxygen available in the (anerobic) septic tank system to break these phenols down.

You can safely recycle the water component of the spent developer by evaporation. Shake the spent developer up well to mix plenty of oxygen into it. Then pour it into a container with a screen or mesh cover (so nothing can get into it). Set the container out in the sun and let all the water evaporate (it shouldn't take more than a few days). A very small amount of dry organic residue will be left behind. When a sufficient amount of residue accumulates it can be taken to a waste disposal site.

That's excellent advice. Thank you.

 

[jstraw]

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/documents/7e/0900688a802e3e7e/KES110ENG.pdf

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=2879/4191/4197&pq-locale=en_US

There's a reason why searching Kodak's sites for "pyro," "pyrogallol" and "pyrogallic acid" didn't turn up those links.

 

[avandesande]

I don't want to get in an argument about this but the biological pathways for the polyphenols are pretty much the same.
Actually hydroquinone is more toxic and breaks down more slowly than pyrogallol.

There's a reason why searching Kodak's sites for "pyro," "pyrogallol" and "pyrogallic acid" didn't turn up those links.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

I don't want to get in an argument about this but the biological pathways for the polyphenols are pretty much the same.
Actually hydroquinone is more toxic and breaks down more slowly than pyrogallol.

No argument from me, I agree with your statement.

 

[gainer]

Looks to me like the worst thing for the small user to do would be to save up small amounts to dump somewhere all at once. But I shouldn't talk. I suffer from constipation.

 

[jstraw]

Looks to me like the worst thing for the small user to do would be to save up small amounts to dump somewhere all at once. But I shouldn't talk. I suffer from constipation.

That's a legitimate concern and one that hadn't occured to me.

If I go with the evaporation method I wonder if I will have trouble gathering the dry residue. I might have to scrape it then I'll be concerned about inhalation. I wonder if I could pour it over cat litter and then let it dry out and take the dry waste for disposal.

 

[bob01721]

"... I wonder if I could pour it over cat litter and then let it dry out and take the dry waste for disposal..."

What about the cat? :confused:

 

[jstraw]

What about the cat? :confused:

No worries, my cat scoffs at the litter box. He'll hold it till a blizzard passes to go outside and use the woods.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

That's a legitimate concern and one that hadn't occured to me.

If I go with the evaporation method I wonder if I will have trouble gathering the dry residue. I might have to scrape it then I'll be concerned about inhalation. I wonder if I could pour it over cat litter and then let it dry out and take the dry waste for disposal.

The recommended method is to evaporate until only a small amount of liquid is left and then soak the remainder up with blotter paper. Then, let the blotter paper dry out and take it for disposal. Disposal by incineration is the MSDS recommended method for paper containing polyphenols.

 

[bob01721]

No worries, my cat scoffs at the litter box. He'll hold it till a blizzard passes to go outside and use the woods.

LOL!

 

[jstraw]

The recommended method is to evaporate until only a small amount of liquid is left and then soak the remainder up with blotter paper. Then, let the blotter paper dry out and take it for disposal. Disposal by incineration is the MSDS recommended method for paper containing polyphenols.

Ah, excellent. I think I have a plan of action materializing.

 

[fotch]

That's a legitimate concern and one that hadn't occured to me.

If I go with the evaporation method I wonder if I will have trouble gathering the dry residue. I might have to scrape it then I'll be concerned about inhalation. I wonder if I could pour it over cat litter and then let it dry out and take the dry waste for disposal.

Why not use a plastic liner, either plastic used in construction, available in rolls from the local big box hardware stores or saran wrap, available in wider widths. After liquid evaporates, roll up the sludge on top of the plastic and dispose of.

 

[jstraw]

Why not use a plastic liner, either plastic used in construction, available in rolls from the local big box hardware stores or saran wrap, available in wider widths. After liquid evaporates, roll up the sludge on top of the plastic and dispose of.

Good idea! Thank you.

 

[removed account4]

i used to sell silver/photochemical recovery units ( agmet ) years ago ..
the least expensive models worked very well.
they looked like a wet dry vacuum drum with a low-heat coil on the base.
there was a very thick trashbag in the drum, and a ittybitty fan on the top.
they were "evap-units" and allowed the end-user to evaporate all
the water out of his/her chemicals and be left with a bag of solid waste.
too bad these things aren't made anymore ...

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

i used to sell silver/photochemical recovery units ( agmet ) years ago ..
the least expensive models worked very well.
they looked like a wet dry vacuum drum with a low-heat coil on the base.
there was a very thick trashbag in the drum, and a ittybitty fan on the top.
they were "evap-units" and allowed the end-user to evaporate all
the water out of his/her chemicals and be left with a bag of solid waste.
too bad these things aren't made anymore ...

John, it seems to me that the method you describe would work very well by placing a plastic (polyethylene) liner in a solar evaporator as suggested in fotch's post.

The same basic method should also work well for recycling the water in stop bath (after neutralizing it with baking soda, washing soda, etc.).

 

[jstraw]

Cat box, catbox liner, blotter in bottom, pour in chemistry, weighted screen on top...out in the free air and sunshine....cover when rain is expected...roll up blotter in liner when it's down to a damp layer...

That's my thinking. I may use two or three of these setups.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Cat box, catbox liner, blotter in bottom, pour in chemistry, weighted screen on top...out in the free air and sunshine....cover when rain is expected...roll up blotter in liner when it's down to a damp layer...

That's my thinking. I may use two or three of these setups.

Works for me!

 

[bob01721]

"Cat box, catbox liner, blotter in bottom, pour in chemistry, weighted screen on top..."

Are you sure the cat's gonna go for this?

 

[jstraw]

Are you sure the cat's gonna go for this?

Note the screen.

 

[Wayne]

Someone asked a question and people who know, answered, and no, Wayne I'm not gonna write a goddamn dissertation on it for you. Do your own friggin research if you think its that complicated. You might start with a basic chemistry course.

Out.

Theres really no need to get that hot about it. Perhaps I deserve it to some degre, if I was overly abrasive, I get that way sometimes and I apologize if I did. But you cant blame me for putting words in your mouth that appear to have been ill-chosen.

I dont recall studying the decomposition of pyrogallol and or its successors in any chemistry course I've taken. I'm not a toxicologist or chemist, just a skeptic. I'm just playing the devil's advocate, trying to raise the bar of evidence a bit. Fact is, I have researched the topic quite thoroughly (I AM a researcher), and I couldnt find any literature about decomposition of photo chemicals in anaerobic septic systems (which is still only one of several related concerns raised by this topic) because (I am now convinced) there is no such literature. I did find copious amounts of anecdote and "so and so says such and such", which may or may not be true.

There is a comparative wealth of published research on decomposition of photo chemicals in industrial systems, but those are aerobic systems, as are most municipal systems I believe. I dont think anyone on a sewer system should give it a second thought, just dump it down the drain.


Wayne

 

[JBrunner]

Kodak or any other company is will advise against any chemical in a septic system for reasons of liability- Their main goal is to avoid legal exposure, by cause, or coincedence.

If it is safe for the septic system is an entirely different matter, and would depend largely on amounts, and the size and activity of the system. That is speculation derived from anecdotal evidence and supposition. The hazard would be upsetting the balance of the septic decomposition because of the antibacterial nature of the substance, not some Erin Brockovich scenario. Given the extreme dilutions and the fact that the pyro would be 90% oxidized, I'm inclined to side with the anecdotes, but then again, I'm not responsible for that septic system. I imagine that if I were I might look for more solid ground.

I have never been a fan of collecting and concentrating chemical residue in quantity, and in many cases it is the worst thing one can do, but in this case it should be fairly harmless. ( not that I'm an authority)

The tough part is most gov people will have never heard of it, and will look to the MSDS, which is concerned with industrial quantities of solid (usually a powder) pyrogallol, not an extremely dilute oxidizing solution, as your spent developer. If they are thoughtful, they will ask good questions. If they just refer to the MSDS you've got a functionary on your hands.

I suppose at this point it could be helpful to point out to some of those doing their own research that the pyrogallol converts through oxidation to purpurogallin, and is the substance of most concern when wondering "where does my pyro go?" (it is an antioxidant and sometimes food additive, and that is what the catbox will contain, among other things)