Disposing of used Pyro

jstraw · Feb 17, 2007

I'm now filling the third big jug of used 510-Pyro because I don't know what to do with the stuff. I'm on septic and I imagine I'll be taking it to the county's monthly, hazzardous waste disposal drop.

How do other people here deal with used Pyro?

PHOTOTONE · Feb 17, 2007

I have sewer. The tiny amount of disposal is not particularly hazardous to the system. Look at how little Pyro powder is used to make up the part A of pyro, and then consider even that amount is greatly diluted with water (and the other parts) to use. It is quite a dilute mixture..much more dilute than say...D-76, for example.

Tony Egan · Feb 17, 2007

I was told by a trusted source that pyro breaks down pretty quickly in the environment. I live in a house and I dilute it a bit more in a bucket then tip it out in a corner of my back yard. So far I haven't noticed any dead bushes or 5-legged lizards in the vicinity.

jstraw · Feb 17, 2007

Iguess if it's not that hazardous, I'd be inclined to dump it down a drain on a sewer system where the water will be treated.

I'm pretty sure I won't introduce it directly to the groundwater. It may be harmless but I won't be comfortable with that.

Tom Hoskinson · Feb 17, 2007

jstraw said:
I'm now filling the third big jug of used 510-Pyro because I don't know what to do with the stuff. I'm on septic and I imagine I'll be taking it to the county's monthly, hazzardous waste disposal drop.

How do other people here deal with used Pyro?

Dilute aqueous photographic developing solutions containing small amounts of pyrogallol, pyrocatechol and hydroquinone oxidize and break down very quickly in the environment. I water my lawn and garden with them. I save and recycle solutions containing heavy metals.

avandesande · Feb 17, 2007

triethanolamine is in shaving cream. pyrogallol is in oak leaves.

Wayne · Feb 17, 2007

avandesande said:
pyrogallol is in oak leaves.

Where it kills cattle unlucky enough to eat enough of it it, by inducing renal failure.

Wayne

KOG · Feb 18, 2007

Iguess if it's not that hazardous, I'd be inclined to dump it down a drain on a sewer system where the water will be treated.

Don't pour it down a storm sewer, storm water usually gets less treatment and because of that, cities usually track down anyone who is screwing up their EPA reporting.

john_s · Feb 18, 2007

Pyrogallol is in foods that are smoked, so you probably have consumed some of it. If it passes through your body it ends up in the sewer.

magic823 · Feb 18, 2007

There is pyrocatechol in human urine.

Papa Tango · Feb 18, 2007

If you are a cow, dont drink it. If you are a human, dont smoke it. Otherwise pour it down the drain. The household cleaning agents you use are more biohazardous...

Wayne · Feb 18, 2007

john_s said:
Pyrogallol is in foods that are smoked, so you probably have consumed some of it. If it passes through your body it ends up in the sewer.

Using this logic he could just drink it.

Wayne

avandesande · Feb 18, 2007

It illustrates that it is commonly found in nature and that there are biological pathways for it breaking down.
What's your problem?

Wayne said:
Using this logic he could just drink it.

Wayne

JBrunner · Feb 18, 2007

Pyro is found in oak galls, but most pyro today comes from a kind of bean pod. Gallic acid is extracted and concentrated by heat into pyrogallol. Like many natural substances, pyro is toxic if ingested. After you have use your pyro developer, it is already mostly oxidized, and in any case is safe for the drain. (Pyrogallol is also used in hair coloring, which also gets rinsed down the drain after it has done its job, but you don't see many threads about it)

Spinach, if concentrated , as raw gallol is concentrated to pyrogallol, is lethal as well. What did you do with that left over spinach?

It is right and proper learn about the chemicals you use, and to dispose of chemicals correctly. Its not good to buy in to over reactions regarding certain substances, that lead to unreasonable policies regarding use and disposal.

Chlorine bleach is truly nasty, caustic, toxic in all but the most minute quantities, and highly reactive chemical, but everyday households use it in vast quantity, and nobody worries about it.

Don't drink bleach, dont drink hair dye, and don't drink your developer. In other words, use your head, for something besides a funnel, and we will all be ok.

john_s · Feb 18, 2007

Wayne said:
Using this logic he could just drink it.

Wayne

This is not supposed to be logic, just an observation. Pyrogallol is, in a small way, carcinogenic, just like many naturally occuring chemicals found in small quantities in some foods that are widely consumed.

Tom Hoskinson · Feb 18, 2007

JBrunner said:
...
Spinach, if concentrated , as raw gallol is concentrated to pyrogallol, is lethal as well. What did you do with that left over spinach?

The oxalates found in spinach are potentially lethal to grazing animals. Oxalates are a major component in both Black Tea and Green Tea.

Oxalates can be useful as a photographic developer - or developer component.

The Folates which abound in fresh spinach don't seem to have a photographic use.

Don't feed spinach to your Cows and don't let them drink tea (or developer).

Drink the tea yourself (or develop with it), and compost the leftover spinach.

jstraw · Feb 18, 2007

What determines to what degree, the pyrogallol in my once-used developer, has been oxidized?

Alex Hawley · Feb 18, 2007

jstraw said:
What determines to what degree, the pyrogallol in my once-used developer, has been oxidized?

Mostly the time it is exposed to air. Pyrogallol in photo solutions oxidizes rapidly compared to the other compounds typically used. That's why pyrogallol developing solutions have short lives and are considered one-shot use.

Wayne · Feb 18, 2007

The problem is that every time this topic comes up people repeat the same anecdotal information, with the implication that it answers the question of proper disposal for the person asking, and it invariably doesnt. John says "this isnt intended to be logic", but thats how it will be taken by many people. After all, why are you replying if not to answer the question? Hmm, its found in urine so it must be OK to dump it wherever I'd take a leak. I think that people could be a little more responsible because people WILL take it that way. And its quite obvious most people INTEND their reply to be taken that way.

Because something is found in urine has little direct bearing on safe disposal of that substance.

Because something is found in nature has little direct bearing on safe disposal of that substance.

Because something is found in hair dye or or Hostess Twinkies has little direct bearing on the safe disposal of that substance.

Because Uncle Ned has been doing something for years and hasnt grown antlers yet has little direct bearing on safe disposal of that substance.

Because some other plant that we eat contains harmless amounts of potentially toxic substances has little direct bearing on safe disposal of yet another toxic substance.

It just isnt that simple. There are a lot more variables that go into determining what constitutes safe disposal of toxic substances, none of which are every mentioned.

Wayne

jstraw · Feb 18, 2007

I'm capable of sorting out the pro and anti environmental soapboxing from useful information.

That's why I'm quietly listening and not thanking anyone yet.

avandesande · Feb 18, 2007

People use anecdotes because this subject has been beat to death a thousand times on the forums.
If I have a chicken in my backyard, it might annoy the neighbors a little but it will not have an impact on the environment. If I have a chicken farm with 50,000 chickens and don't get rid of the waste properly, i can poison an entire river. A casual photographer is about equivalent to a person with a chicken in their backyard.

What do you suggest he does with his cup of 510 pyro?

jstraw · Feb 18, 2007

avandesande said:
People use anecdotes because this subject has been beat to death a thousand times on the forums.
If I have a chicken in my backyard, it might annoy the neighbors a little but it will not have an impact on the environment. If I have a chicken farm with 50,000 chickens and don't get rid of the waste properly, i can poison an entire river. A casual photographer is about equivalent to a person with a chicken in their backyard.

What do you suggest he does with his cup of 510 pyro?

If by "beat do death" you mean axes have been ground down to the handle and predjudices aired, ad nauseum...I guess that may be true.

But if you mean an informed, quantifed answer has been delivered with no agendas involved and this is just one more bozo asking a question without bothering to use the search tool...then I'd be grateful for a pointer to the data I failed to uncover...with my sincere apologies.

Tom Hoskinson · Feb 18, 2007

jstraw said:
What determines to what degree, the pyrogallol in my once-used developer, has been oxidized?

Add some water to your used developer and then shake the solution vigorously to get more air/oxygen into the solution, let it sit for a few hours and then run this test:

The pyrogallol in your once used developer can be considered oxidized and inactive when it will no longer blacken the silver in an (exposed) test piece of your favorite B&W film (like a 1 inch piece) when you develop it at your usual time and temperature - - even if you add 1 or 2 teaspoons of washing soda (sodium carbonate) to the used solution.

If it DOES blacken the silver, add some more water and then shake the solution vigorously to get more air/oxygen into the solution, let the solution sit for a few hours and test it again.

Alex Hawley · Feb 18, 2007

Lets just do the math. I don't have the formula for 510 pyro so I'll use ABC pyro which contains a higher amount of pyro than Pyrocat does.

The initial solution has 60 grams pyro per liter water H2O.

My developing solution for ABC is 1:1:1:7, 1 part pyro solution to 7 parts water. If I make 1 liter of developing solution, I use 100 ml of the pyro solution so now we are down to 6 grams/liter.

1 gallon is about 4 liters (mental math, not the calculator), so for each gallon of water added to the 6 gram/liter pyro, we now have 1.5 grams/gallon.

Am I doing it right so far?

Let's say I dump this gallon into a 6000 gallon septic tank. Dilute the concentration by another factor of 6000 and we have .0003 grams/gallon. Can you detect that? If you think its possible, please provide the equipment list and procedure to do it, not just some fanciable rhetoric.

If I dump that original gallon into a municipal sewer system, what's the concentration? How many gallons does the system contain? Probably at least a million for even just a small community and that's being very conservative. Anyone care to measure the sewer water for pyro? Could it be detected?

I like Aaron's example better. One or even ten chickens is no problem. The waste per day from 50,000 chickens is a problem.

avandesande · Feb 18, 2007

I used to work at a chemical plant and we were allowed a certain percentage of organic non-halogenated chemicals/solvents to go into the municipal system every day. We paid a extra fee to be allowed to do this.
Municipal water systems were designed around destroying just the kind of chemicals that are used in photography.

If the author of the thread had asked me how to get rid of a gallon of chlordane, I would have told him to take it to the county hazmat site.

Disposing of used Pyro

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