Dish Soap

Lawrenceu · Apr 14, 2011

Have any of you ever used a hypo allergenic dish soap as a wetting agent rather than something like Photoflo?

Mainecoonmaniac · Apr 14, 2011

I've heard isopropyl alcohol will work as a wetting agent. I think Edwal LFN is mostly alcohol. I'm sure some APUGer would know.

Ottrdaemmerung · Apr 14, 2011

I've indeed heard of using dish soap as wetting agent, mostly in the context of do-it-yourself photographic chemicals, like Caffenol for developing and water for stop bath.
Regarding Mainecoon's remark about isopropyl alcohol: I haven't heard of using it by itself, but many people swear that using it for part of the wetting solution instead of water will make the film dry faster.

MattKing · Apr 14, 2011

Your wetting agent is the last thing you put on to your negatives, and a small amount of it may stay with your negatives "forever". Unless you have a complete listing of the ingredients in the soap, and a complete description of the effects of each of those ingredients on negatives, I don't know why you would want to. I know that on APUG Photo Engineer has repeatedly warned against using dish detergent for this purpose. And I also know that Photoflo and its competitors are cheap!!!!

David Brown · Apr 14, 2011

Lawrenceu said:
ever used a hypo allergenic dish soap ... rather than ... Photoflo?

Um, since Photoflo is cheap, purpose made, and a bottle lasts for years, no.

nhemann · Apr 14, 2011

I have tried it, in my chemicals, schemicals days, and its not worth it. It has a much greater tendency to foam up than specifically designed wetting agents, and its easy to add too much (which is still very little) and end up with a developing tank full of suds and a brain full of regret.

Just buy the photoflo or similar.

Rick A · Apr 14, 2011

I'm a firm believer in using Edwal LFN wetting agent. Directions call for one drop in one pint of distilled water. Thats all thats necessary to clear film for spotless drying. Its reusable, keep it until things start to grow in it then dump and make a new batch. You can also add one capful of 99% isopropyl alcohol to the LFN mix, and speed drying to just minutes. One other use for LFN, add one drop to developer and no air bubbles stick to the film. I have a 3/4oz bottle that has lasted nearly 10 years.

removed account4 · Apr 14, 2011

David Brown said:
Um, since Photoflo is cheap, purpose made, and a bottle lasts for years, no.

you're telling me !
i just finished ( almost )
a bottle purchased from 1981 ...

no need to use dish soap with perfumes or other ingredients
or jet dry or whatever else there is .. photo flo is cheap as dirt
and only requires a drop or 2 for a tank of film -

- john

Photo Engineer · Apr 14, 2011

This has been discussed to DEATH! OMG. Most dish soaps have the following: Fragrance, dye and emollient. These can affect film adversely. In addition, most dish soap is ionic whereas most surfactants are non-ionic!

I give up! Use a brillo pad to wipe down your film while you are at it!

PE

David Brown · Apr 14, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
I give up! Use a brillo pad to wipe down your film while you are at it!

You tell 'em, Ron!

Photo Engineer · Apr 14, 2011

Ok, that was OTT, but it does express the fact that this has been done to death here. Sorry.

PE

2F/2F · Apr 14, 2011

David Brown said:
Um, since Photoflo is cheap, purpose made, and a bottle lasts for years, no.

Ditto. You'll accidentally spill your Photo-Flo all over the place long before you use it up. Trust me.

Lawrenceu · Apr 14, 2011

Thanks, I was just curious because I had someone today extolling the virtues of hypo-allergenic Ivory soap to me.

Photo Engineer · Apr 14, 2011

Just to add some information.....

There are some ionic surfactants / wetting agents, but they contain no dyes, fragrances or humectants / emolliants. So, they are safe. I looked it up and Fomaflo appears to be one of this class. I have used it with excellent results.

PE

Photo Engineer · Apr 14, 2011

Lawrenceu said:
Thanks, I was just curious because I had someone today extolling the virtues of hypo-allergenic Ivory soap to me.

The only thing I can add is that it floats!

And that was discovered by accident and led to the dismissal of the discoverer.

PE

M.A.Longmore · Apr 14, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
I give up! Use a brillo pad to wipe down your film while you are at it! PE

.
Could I use Wet&Dry Sandpaper instead of a squeegee ?

Ron
.

mts · Apr 14, 2011

PE, I found that it actually takes two brillo pads one for each side of the film. It is far easier to fold a scotchguard patch and wipe with it. After all, modern emulsions are already hardened against abrasion. Sometimes I notice scratching on my film and am considering returning to wiping with sponges moistened with photoflo... I do find that I must wipe even when using distilled water to avoid water spots in drying. Generally my darkroom humidity is low ~10% and film dries so fast that residual drops don't run off.

guitstik · Apr 15, 2011

Ron, I think that someone (you) should write an FAQ that gets stickied and put to the top of everything so that we can put an end to questions like this, not your fault Lawrenceu. This and others of it's ilk pop up from time to time and get hashed and re-hashed to death, then a few months go by and the whole process starts again.

Fanshaw · Apr 15, 2011

I always use Cussons 'Mornng Fresh'. Just a couple of drops per pint. It contains 'Sparklex' which leaves the negatives really clean.

Rick A · Apr 15, 2011

If you can use Ivory soap for wetting agent, does this mean you can use vinegar douche for stop bath?

Lawrenceu · Apr 15, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
The only thing I can add is that it floats!

And that was discovered by accident and led to the dismissal of the discoverer.

PE

That is an interesting incident in American Manufacturing. One must be careful what one does during break times.

bblhed · Apr 15, 2011

I have never used Dish soap as a wetting agent, but I have used Photo Flo to wash my equipment with, now I am beginning to wonder if that makes me a bad person.

I figure it this way, if dish soap is no good for film, then I probably shouldn't wash my tanks, tongs, trays, storage bottles, funnels, and whatever else in it either.

Vlad Soare · Apr 15, 2011

Ron, I'm just curious. Why does it matter whether the wetting agent is ionic or not?
OK, I understand that it's important not to leave any residue and not to contain anything that might damage the film or the emulsion. But supposing that these two conditions were fulfilled, why would covalent bonds be any better than ionic ones?

Photo Engineer · Apr 15, 2011

Vlad;

I should expand on that topic. Most all wetting agents are non-ionic to guard against possible interaction with metal salts in the water. An anionic (negatively charged) surfactant will work very well though and I have used them. Do not use a positively charged surfactant though. They tend to be poorer and also tend to act as mordants for many things.

As for washing equipment in dish soap, that is fine as long as you remove it.

And remember that a dish soap is not necessarily a wetting agent and a wetting agent is not necessarily a dish soap.

This material is part of my "Myths" series on Photo Net.

PE

Vlad Soare · Apr 15, 2011

Most all wetting agents are non-ionic to guard against possible interaction with metal salts in the water.

I see. This makes sense.
Thanks.

Dish Soap

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